Paper Problems

[legionzilla]

I think most of the easy models can be folded from printer paper, though for models like stego and ankylo, I would reccomend Kraft or Mced Brown paper.

[WhisperPuffin]

Well, everything in Origami Fantasy can be folded with 2 inch kami. But not necessarily well.

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Bethnor, in your original post you never mentioned taping multiple sheets together, hence Frumious ( and I ) thought you meant using sheets of 10" ( for example ). Saying that very complex models can be done from 10" kami is indeed an elitist statement, and it is in no way helpful. Yes, it can be done, but people look for nice results rather than having to fold with tweezers and ending up with a model that is hardly recognizable. By saying that something can be done with a simple kami sheet implies that if you fail at that you're a terrible origamist.

For the record, I don't own Origami Fantasy, so I can't really say anything about that, but rather than saying that you could do something with kami, it would be nicer to say which paper you should use.

Precisely.

[qtrollip]

Ok guys, enough with all the BS.
I think authors of diagrams should at least put a proportion/ratio of paper to finished size in with every model they publish. This should eliminate such questions, answers and back-and-forth discussions as these.

Giving the ratio, the folder could decide what the final size of the model had to be and thus figure out what sort of paper to use (more or less).
For the author to give an idea of paper to use is useless in my opinion because not everyone has access to the same papers.
When it comes to the ratio of models, you can also know what sizes to use to fold different models in proportion.
Example: model with smallest finished size compared to the starting paper first. That means that the rest of the models won't need larger papers than the one you already used and you can work it out that way.

To get back to the original question... I had good results from plain "kraft" paper, and I generally use larger sheets than the average folder. As Kraft paper come in large sizes, I could fold all the dinos in that book in relative proportion.
Hope that helps.

[bethnor]

Bethnor, in your original post you never mentioned taping multiple sheets together, hence Frumious ( and I ) thought you meant using sheets of 10" ( for example ). Saying that very complex models can be done from 10" kami is indeed an elitist statement, and it is in no way helpful. Yes, it can be done, but people look for nice results rather than having to fold with tweezers and ending up with a model that is hardly recognizable. By saying that something can be done with a simple kami sheet implies that if you fail at that you're a terrible origamist.

again, i don't understand. the whole problem stems from my original post being called elitist. why should you assume i meant 10" kami? in that case, i get to assume that other posters mean 10" tissue foil, or 10" tant. hate to point this out, but any super complex origami that is hard with 10" kami, is going to be even harder with 10" tissue foil or 10" tant (the former, again, with problems with reversing creases and doing sinks, and the latter being ever THICKER than kami, recall the OP complaint was his kraft was too thick. for instance, all that precreasing you do for the ankylosaurus is almost a waste of time with tissue foil, a simple swipe of your hand can smooth it all away). and, as the OP has pointed out, "kraft" is a very heterogeneous product, and not all kraft is suitable for complex origami. like the OP, i have also used the kraft available at michael's, and found it too soft, too springy, and too floppy. so i answered the question from my own perspective: i have successfully folded everything from the book with kami (started out with 35 cm for the first time, actually, i don't get where one can ASS-U-ME that i meant 25 cm), and the truth is, most everything from that book looks pretty good with it. as i stated before, many of the models from the color photos in the front of the book look to be folded from kami.

i could easily argue that it's much more elitist to suggest stuff that involves using mc. not everyone knows how to do that, and even reading the links, not everyone gets good results doing it the first time. it also takes some time, space, and set-up to make those things yourself, something you are ASSUMING the original poster has. not everyone who knows how to do it feels like it either. i've done tissue foil before. i don't like the stuff for its above mentioned properties, so i'm not going to recommend a material i myself don't favor.

one can suggest the papers from nicolas terry's shop, however, though i enjoy his services, you really should have your own source of income before you buy from there, and i could easily argue it's inconsiderate to believe that people have the funds to do so. it's notable that the kraft, tant, and foil options are all more expensive than the kami there (though i don't know why you would buy kami from there). so cost was also a consideration in my answer (though i concede buying large rolls is cheaper; i'm speaking of precut squares).

if people disagree, that's great, let's discuss it, but calling suggestions "elitist BS" when such posters have gotten huffy about people using tape is a little bit much.

[insaneorigami]

hate to point this out, but any super complex origami that is hard with 10" kami, is going to be even harder with 10" tissue foil or 10" tant

Hmm, I would have to say that I disagree. Kami paper tends to fray, and areas where there is a good deal of creasing will cause fray holes to appear.

Tissue foil and tant are much harder to tear...
Also, with Kami, the color fades during the folding process.. areas of many crease intersections will turn completely white...

[Adam]

Giving the ratio, the folder could decide what the final size of the model had to be and thus figure out what sort of paper to use (more or less).
For the author to give an idea of paper to use is useless in my opinion because not everyone has access to the same papers.

I partially agree. Giving an idea of paper may provide little help for some people, but on the other hand people who can get their hands on specific types of paper are better off. Ideally, I would say that authors should make a suggestion of how much g/sm a sheet should have, for example, so that people at least know which papers they really shouldn't use.

i could easily argue that it's much more elitist to suggest stuff that involves using mc. not everyone knows how to do that, and even reading the links, not everyone gets good results doing it the first time. it also takes some time, space, and set-up to make those things yourself, something you are ASSUMING the original poster has. not everyone who knows how to do it feels like it either. i've done tissue foil before. i don't like the stuff for its above mentioned properties, so i'm not going to recommend a material i myself don't favor.

In that case even suggesting that I should use kami larger than 8" would be elitist as well, since I have never seen kami larger than 8" in any store I've visited. In other words, it's not readily available for me. And for the record, I never made any assumptions whatsoever about what possibilities the OP has. Nor did I make any suggestions for paper myself, since I'm not familiar with the folding sequences in the book.

One post that sums up my thoughts can be found here.

if people disagree, that's great, let's discuss it, but calling suggestions "elitist BS" when such posters have gotten huffy about people using tape is a little bit much.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this sentence. Do you think that people are against the use of tape to join sheets together, in order to form larger sheets? If that's the case, then I have no idea where you got that idea from.

[origamimasterjared]

Ok guys, enough with all the BS.
I think authors of diagrams should at least put a proportion/ratio of paper to finished size in with every model they publish. This should eliminate such questions, answers and back-and-forth discussions as these.

Giving the ratio, the folder could decide what the final size of the model had to be and thus figure out what sort of paper to use (more or less).

Of course even that doesn't tell all you need to know. For instance, my Mamenchisaurus comes out 20 inches long from a 17 inch square. 20 inches sounds long, and like a square of US copy paper would give you a 10 inch long dino. But the eye of the 20 inch dino is about 1/4 inch--that would make the printer paper eye 1/8 inch, which is tiny! Not criticizing, as it's a very good suggestion, but pointing out some uncertainties. I keep meaning to do that though...if nothing else, drawing the scaled down version longer than the initial square will look pretty cool

Ideally, I would say that authors should make a suggestion of how much g/sm a sheet should have, for example, so that people at least know which papers they really shouldn't use.

I'll say, I see gsm as practically useless. Tissue paper and that awesome kozo and the Origamido paper that insect folders use have about the same weight. I do like the style that Quentin and Román use

• Kami - NO
  Foil - OK
  Wet-fold - BEST

is pretty good, though, I would mentally replace "wet-fold" with "any display-quality paper"

Also, there is a difference between just folding to learn the sequences/practice-folding, and folding for a display. Unless the finished piece shows big crease-free areas, foil is a no-no for displays (i.e. modulars, boxes, pretty stars and stuff are okay), but foil is a great practice paper! Robert Lang does all his drafts with big sheets of foil. If you are careful with foil (and even tissue-foil) it is good. Just treat it like paper. If you use only clean folds, and treat it like regular origami paper, it works fine. (Remember, foil goes on the inside). Everything I've folded from Origami Fantasy (I haven't folded them all--I definitely have no Ankylosauruses) folds well from 10 inch foil. You just end up with something made from foil, which doesn't look the best. For instance, here's a Tyrannosaurus I folded some years ago. Everything's there....but it's foil.



I much prefer the paper he's standing on

[Adam]

I'll say, I see gsm as practically useless. Tissue paper and that awesome kozo and the Origamido paper that insect folders use have about the same weight. I do like the style that Quentin and Román use

• Kami - NO
  Foil - OK
  Wet-fold - BEST

is pretty good, though, I would mentally replace "wet-fold" with "any display-quality paper"

Ah, well, I'd like to point out that there are many types of tissue paper, kozo and Origamido. I've seen tissue paper as thin as 10g/sm and as thick as 25g/sm. Kozo varies from 30g/sm to 80+g/sm. Origamido has an undefined thickness, as every batch and every type of Origamido is different. Saying that they're equally thick seems a bit strange to me. That's why I often see gsm as something that is useful ( to some extent ) when forming a decision on what paper to use.

The list style you've mentioned is a nice idea, indeed, as it provides a simple picture of what thickness could work for a model.

[origamimasterjared]

I'll say, I see gsm as practically useless. Tissue paper and that awesome kozo and the Origamido paper that insect folders use have about the same weight.

Ah, well, I'd like to point out that there are many types of tissue paper, kozo and Origamido. I've seen tissue paper as thin as 10g/sm and as thick as 25g/sm. Kozo varies from 30g/sm to 80+g/sm. Origamido has an undefined thickness, as every batch and every type of Origamido is different. Saying that they're equally thick seems a bit strange to me.

I know! That's why I differentiated them all. I referred to a specific kozo and a specific Origamido (colloquially). I did not however specify a tissue paper, but tissue is actually the weight class that these papers (and for instance, gampi tissue) fall under. What I meant by "that awesome kozo" was "that awesome kozo that Sipho Mabona, Ben Muller, I, and I don't know who else uses that comes in a variety of dyed colors". And for the Origamido, I guess I could talk about the paper that folders such as Brian Chan, Jason Ku, Sipho Mabona, and Robert Lang have used for their insects.

Also, thickness and weight, while related, are different.

And not to mention, if you're just talking about fiber types, kozo, hanji, unryu, and mulberry are the same. But the papers sure aren't!

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Firstly, I have never gotten "Huffy" about someone using tape. I do recall teasing someone about posting a photo in which you could see it.

Secondly, the original poster asked for a suggestion of a "thin and strong paper" because for him, the model had "layers that I am working with seem to be too thick to deal with." TRC posted something helpful, such as suggestions for alternate paper choices and three topics for options for strengthening his paper. Now, Kami, although comparatively thin, has never been particularly strong, nor thin in places with many layers. Suggesting it to someone who is having trouble with paper with these types of properties isn't helpful.

Bethnor, it is entirely possible that I misread your original reply as snide. If this was not your intention, then I humbly apologize for calling it Elitest BS. However, you have to admit that you HAVE seen people posting up complex models on here, made of kami, expressly with the purpose of boasting. Thus, a statement like that would read as such. Lets not argue the point anymore, as some people are turning into an argument about semantics, rather than about actions, and it seems with all of these posts that this point, like many things, is open to interpretation.

Also, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded.

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this sentence. Do you think that people are against the use of tape to join sheets together, in order to form larger sheets? If that's the case, then I have no idea where you got that idea from.

Don't fret about that Adam, he's trying to take pot-shots at me.

[Zoraz]

However, you have to admit that you HAVE seen people posting up complex models on here, made of kami, expressly with the purpose of boasting.

I hope you're not talking about me here... my purpose was not to boast at all, it was just a way I came up with to get rid of my surplus of 6 inch kami that I would probably never use otherwise. However, I apologize if I came off as arrogant by posting them.

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

absolutely not zoraz! I would boast if I could do that too! Good natured boasting is not arrogance. I was impressed quite a bit by that, actually.

[Adam]

I hope you're not talking about me here... my purpose was not to boast at all, it was just a way I came up with to get rid of my surplus of 6 inch kami that I would probably never use otherwise. However, I apologize if I came off as arrogant by posting them.

What you were able to do with 6" kami is incredible and it must've been a huge challenge, but I simply mean that even though it's possible wouldn't recommend doing that to someone who is having paper problems.

-snip-

Ah, I see what you mean now. Nevertheless, even though there are many different types of papers that fall under certain gsm, it still indicates ( to some extent ) which papers one should truly avoid and which ones could provide a nice result.

Also, arguing on the internet is a lot like the special olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded.

And yet here we are on this lovely forum, discussing all kinds of things through the internet.