Undiagramable models?

[Gerardo]

My latest model is my Pedal bin

When I folded it small in common paper I didn't have any problem with using simple references like halves and thirds. Yet, when I folded it in the proper size using posterboard, and adding foreign materials like cardboard, plywood, and glass, those references stopped working. The thickness of the layers changed the dimensions of each part of the model. Besides that, two of the pieces are made starting with a blintz base. In order to find the proper size for those two pieces I had to use the Pythagorean theorem.

At the end, in order to fold it I had to use a ruler, a calculator, and various attempts.

I find all this undiagramable, but then again... I don't know that much about diagramming. What do you think? Have you had to diagram something where the thickness of the layers, maybe by accumulation, didn't let you use simple references and where you have to use a theorem to deduce the size of some of its pieces?

I really wish to read your thoughts

[Ondrej.Cibulka]

Hi!
This is quite unusual problem. My solution: Draw the diagram for one selected paper type, size and thickness and write there your suggestion with warning that another paper combination will fail.

[Gerardo]

I would really appreciate some other points of view. I can't be the only one that finds a problem in the fact that the thickness of a part of a model doesn't allow you use the original reference, maybe not because of foreign materials, but I'm sure it can happen when you have too many layers together. What can you (who is reading this) tell me?

Hi!
This is quite unusual problem. My solution: Draw the diagram for one selected paper type, size and thickness and write there your suggestion with warning that another paper combination will fail.

Thanks for your answer.

Would you then suggest that I explain the references in terms of exact measurements instead of the kind of traditional references used for folds in origami?

[maddoghoek100]

in my experience (and in my personal diagrams) i assume that the paper has no thickness. In all models the papers thickness relative to the size of the model will create paper creep and inaccuracy. I would argue the most "accurate" folders take into account the relative thickness in the paper and the final product and impart error to their folds to counteract and minimize this effect.

i would assume your model is diagram-able and if there are specific reference points that need to be identified by folding you can use robert langs reference finder to find a common folding sequence to identify them.

You can in a note make reference to adjustments that may be required to support thicker papers.

[Ondrej.Cibulka]

You cannot assume that the paper has no thickness, if you plan to insert one part to another. My model of the Czech flag is exactly from two sheets of paper divided into thirds in geometrical point of view. But if you try to insert one part to another, it is not possible because of thickness of the paper. So you need to change the division of the external part of the model so, that the internal part will go inside it without problem. Gerardo has the same problem with inserting of the several part of his model. He need to count with the paper thickness.

I am sure, that using a ruler of pad with cm-grid is OK for your model, Gerardo. It will be much cleaner than by using Lang's milion folds to get one reference point (and second milion to get second reference point...).

[Gerardo]

I am sure, that using a ruler of pad with cm-grid is OK for your model, Gerardo. It will be much cleaner than by using Lang's milion folds to get one reference point (and second milion to get second reference point...).

One question... has anybody seen that done before in diagrams? I mean diagrams with a lot measurements instead of the usual origami references?

[origami_8]

Well, Robert Lang offers measurements for some of his models but I think he always offers an Origami way too to get to almost the same points.

[maddoghoek100]

You cannot assume that the paper has no thickness

I can and I do. Adobe illustrator and Treemaker offer a perfect euclidean plane, so i cant see any reason i would not want to use them as such, but to each their own. The most important consideration when diagramming something is probably your audience. You should do it in whatever way you think your audience will get the most utility out of it. I dont think i have ever seen a widely published work that is diagrammed for a single GSM of paper though, but i have not seen every book out there either.

[Ondrej.Cibulka]

You cannot assume that the paper has no thickness

I can and I do.

I did not write just "you cannot assume". I also write more: "if you plan to insert one part to another." This is the merit.

[Gerardo]

Can any of you show me diagrams like the ones origami_8 mentions? I would really appreciate it.

Well, Robert Lang offers measurements for some of his models but I think he always offers an Origami way too to get to almost the same points.

Thank you very much for the info! It's really helpful .

[maddoghoek100]

robert langs scorpion is a good example, but the reason for the strange references has nothing to do with the thickness of the paper. the references are a result of designing the model in treemaker to achieve specific proportions in the model. i think i am ok posting to sara adam's tutorial, as i believe it to be authorized. mods please feel free to delete the link if it is not

http://www.happyfolding.com/instructions-lang-scorpion

[Gerardo]

robert langs scorpion is a good example...

Thanks maddoghoek100 !

[origami_8]

Since Sara has permissions from all the designers to show the models she made videos for, I see no reason why it shouldn't be okay to link to them, on the contrary.
Linking to pirated copies of diagrams on the other hand could have legal consequences for this Forum and therefore we can not tolerate it.

[ginshun]

Robert Lang's Western Pond Turtle is another good example.

In order to get the reference marks for the shell scales you need to divide the top of the paper into 39th's and the bottom into 78ths. It is possible to do this with folds, and Lang shows the folding sequence to do so (14 steps I believe), but it is a lot easier to just measure the paper and mark the required points.

[Gerardo]

Robert Lang's Western Pond Turtle is another good example.

I'll check that out... thanks!