Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

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Razzmatazz
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Razzmatazz »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_beauty

The only thing I can think of where origami can be "elegant" was somewhat described in an article concerning boxpleating (I think) written by someone notable (whom I forget). Essentially what it got at was that use of paper and certain amount of detail (but not too much/little) dictate some sort of perfection or aesthetic union in the model.

No, I do not classify any Kamiya models under those conditions.

Will update about the article later if I can find out where I read it
I think it was tanteidan.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by bethnor »

shortloldude wrote:
It seems like you are saying this is a bad thing or problematic.
i didn't say that. i said that it means that "elegant" is probably not the correct adjective for the cp. at the very worst, "inefficient" is definitely applicable, and i don't think anything that is inefficient can properly be called elegant.
Why is it "dizzying" that paper is used up?
look. you guys may not know it, but some of us are getting a little old to be getting on the floor and our knees to precrease a 1 meter square (the minimum, take note). it's not healthy for the knees and back. i have a big house now but even i don't have a big flat surface where this is easily done. therefore it is nice when a model utilizes as much of the paper as possible, but not necessary. and while i like cutting 50 cm squares from the rolls at nicolas terry shop, not everyone has an endless supply of large paper that is super thin and super strong. so again, efficiency is nice, but not necessarily mandatory. i don't expect other to dislike a model because i find a cp inefficient.
You complete disregard how amazing the dragon is.
wrong, wrong, wrong. i believe i was the first on this board to remark how ingenious the design was. i don't think i was the first to notice, but i was the first to say so.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think some people dislike Kamiya because of how popular he is and attempt to throw anything they can at him to make him seem less amazing.
you have to have noticed that, for a long time, there were NO updates to his website. there was every possibility that kamiya had retired from origami. i like him as much as the next (in fact, most of the origami i have on display are his models, because they have the nice feature of looking good as is, without too much further shaping), but he's not going to be around forever. if he were to stop tomorrow, who will take his place at the JOAS? it would be one thing if there were NO ONE, but everyone who has wandered the net KNOWS there are tons of talents japanese folders who can and should get more exposure.
The tail of his phoenix stands out...I challenge you personally to create an easily recognizable phoenix with a tail proportionately as long to the model itself as kamiya's is, but with better paper usage.
this is the old "if you can't do better, be quiet" argument, and if it were true, then criticism could never exist. but if i were capable of designing a phoenix, i would first note two things. 1) the aesthetics of kamiya's phoenix, while cool to look at, are very clearly based on the phoenixes of final fantasy, and i would deviate from this somehow 2) the need to make it from a square, while "cool," is arbitrary. joseph wu, leo lai, quyet, and a huge number of others have routinely made very "cool" looking models while violating these arbitrary rules.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Justinorigami »

look. you guys may not know it, but some of us are getting a little old to be getting on the floor and our knees to precrease a 1 meter square (the minimum, take note). it's not healthy for the knees and back. i have a big house now but even i don't have a big flat surface where this is easily done. therefore it is nice when a model utilizes as much of the paper as possible, but not necessary. and while i like cutting 50 cm squares from the rolls at nicolas terry shop, not everyone has an endless supply of large paper that is super thin and super strong. so again, efficiency is nice, but not necessarily mandatory. i don't expect other to dislike a model because i find a cp inefficient.
When you design a model more efficient, and as complex as Satoshi Kamiya's Ryuzin 3.5 that uses a smaller square, please let me know. Until then, stop criticizing the model.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Baltorigamist »

I've been following this topic since its creation while trying to decide my viewpoint.

Here's the thing: Kamiya may be overrated, an inefficient designer, etc. But one thing I've noticed is that he's not afraid to think outside the box and go beyond what normal people would be willing to do. IMO that's his main technique--ingenuity and ambition. Who else would think to design a model that takes a six-foot square? Who else would design a model that puts 3/4 of the paper in the tail?

Personally I don't find the models themselves to be elegant, only the crease patterns. And nothing makes one model (or, for that matter, designer) BETTER than another. Kamiya isn't a bad designer, but nor is he the greatest out there. While there's nothing wrong with looking up to him, we at least can appreciate his contributions to the art.
My newest design was recently compared to Kamiya's work, and I consider that to be an honor even though I feel he's overrated. This is because he's given a lot more of his work than we used to expect. (He's even stated that he doesn't like diagramming his models.) So appreciate what we have instead of expecting everyone to stay within your limits. If you can't precrease a 1m+ square, fold something "cooler" that doesn't take a huge square.

Ask for one of my CPs if you have to; most of my models can be done easily from a 15cm square. I know because I've folded them that small.
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bethnor
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by bethnor »

When you design a model more efficient, and as complex as Satoshi Kamiya's Ryuzin 3.5 that uses a smaller square, please let me know. Until then, stop criticizing the model.
make me. to go further--the model is pretty to look at, but inefficient with its paper.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Justinorigami »

Are his models the most efficient? No.
Do I care? No.
Efficiency isn't everything. In fact, I would argue that folding sequences are above efficiency. I like to enjoy the folding of a model and Kamiya's models are fun.

As for you Bethnor,
I personally feel that Kamiya should have stopped at 1.2. Complexity is overrated IMHO.
But to whine about how inefficient the design is is mind boggling.
His layout of the design is original and I applaud him for that. And like I said, I will rethink my opinions on the design when you make a better one.
Thanks.
Last edited by Justinorigami on October 17th, 2013, 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chtikechtakelaguelak
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by chtikechtakelaguelak »

bethnor wrote:... he is popular because he makes complex models that are "cool" to look at. hard to put it into words without sounding off-putting, but his models have the look of an origami version of a detailed drawing that doesn't necessarily have lots of artistic value.
...
I totally agree
despite of the cool folding process...
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Bubo »

He is also popular because he takes the time to diagram his "cool" models and does so in a manner that makes them accessible to the "average" folder (by which I mean those who have been folding for some years but aren't necessarily adept at folding and shaping from CPs). As much as I admire Lang's recent wasp (Origami Masters) and recognise it as the challenge it was no doubt intended to be, I can't help but be a little disappointed that it is highly dependent on a massive all in one collapse - I hope Kamiya doesn't follow in this manner.

The debate about efficiency and aesthetics is worthwhile but like most artistic debates I doubt there will be uniform opinion. If someone wants to answer the question "Is Kamiya overrated?" they need to specify by what criteria he is being assessed against. As pointed out there are many other artists that produce models just as "cool" but no-one produces diagrams as prolifically, with similar clarity, enjoyable sequences and (manageable) complexity (Romaz Diaz would be a close second IMO). Arguably he is not the "best" in any one of those areas but I think Kamiya is the one that brings all those factors together.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Mir Numaan »

kamiya is the best out there! almost every complex folder might have folded his models..and the best of all he doesn't use complex math to design his models. maybe he designs from cps?
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by origami_8 »

One thing that many people here forget is the fact that Satoshi Kamiya was one of the first people that not only came up with incredible complex designs but who was also one of the first to make them accessible. If you look at his first book, it states that those designs where created between 1995 and 2003. Some of you haven't even be born by then. Most of the people today who design complex models started of with his first book and ODS and worked their way up from there. Without Kamiya and Lang complex Origami wouldn't be where it now is. So some of Kamiya's designs may seem dated by now, be it because of inefficiency issues or other points, but don't forget that when he designed them, they were way ahead of their time.
When I joined this Forum ten years ago, there was no Vietnam Origami Group, neither did the Korean Origami group exist. All those amazing creators learned from Kamiya, Lang and others.
So is Kamiya overrated? I'd say no because he was the first one to fold these kind of things in such a complexity and he still comes up with great models that might be more efficient in their sequences, paper use and such, because like everyone else he gets better over time. And sincerely I find it a bit unfair to judge him as overrated comparing his decade old designs with recent designs of some new Origami stars.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by phillipcurl »

I wish we had a "respect" or "like" option for posts on here. Great points Anna, I agree with you on every one.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Swapnil Das »

@ origami_8
That was great! Great point! I also wish there was a like button here too!
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Mir Numaan
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Mir Numaan »

it was kamiya who showed the world ''super complex'' origami, it was kamiya who first designed and diagramed a model with more than 200 steps at such a young age!
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by merman »

Not every piece of origami needs to be super sufficient. Komatsu is a good example. Some may deem his cp's insufficient but he uses a lot of paper for volume, e.g. the manes of his wolf and lion. And his models are so much fun to fold. He has an amazing eye for folding sequences.

I am a huge fan of Kamiya. His models are fun to fold and still challenging. When you make your own design you start to understand the process used in instruction. A lot of the super complex box-pleated and Treemaker designs follow this pattern: 1. Fold all the creases of the cp, 2. Collapse either at once or in a few steps. 3. Sink sink sink sink sink 4. Shape. It depends very much on having ultrathin paper, which kinda takes away the charm of origami being an artform that can be folded from material generally available. I don't have tons of sheets of origamido lying around in my appartment.

And yes, Kamiya is a huge talent. I am a sucker for 22.5 angled designs and he and Komatsu are at the top range... Same as Lang's designs in Origami Insects and their Kin were genius because of this same reasons. It is still my favorite Lang book...

So keep Works of Satoshi Kamiya vol. 3 coming!
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by NL3181 »

@origami_8
Well said indeed! Couldn't agree more :)
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