Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

General discussion about Origami, Papers, Diagramming, ...
Justinorigami
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: April 14th, 2013, 2:31 pm

Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Justinorigami »

Hi,
I am not very experienced with non boxpleated origami design, and marvel at the works of Satoshi Kamiya. How does he achieve such elegant crease patterns? They seem to be free of all the nasty molecules (Gusset for example). Does anyone know what technique he uses to design?
Thank you,
Justin
Then one day you find, ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. - Pink Floyd, Time
Kicker
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: July 26th, 2013, 1:34 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Kicker »

Origami masters usually use a very large set of techniques mixed together.
The Phoenix 3.5, for example, is obviously box-pleated.
The Chocobo looks more like a bird base to which he grafted an extra square to make a big head.
Then he used the extra strips on the sides to make nice looking legs.
Justinorigami
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: April 14th, 2013, 2:31 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Justinorigami »

Is the phoenix boxpleated? I know there is a lot of sinking involved, but it doesn't seem to lie on a grid, nor use 40 degree angles. I know that most artists use multiple techniques, but his work has a distinct style to it.
Then one day you find, ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. - Pink Floyd, Time
Kicker
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: July 26th, 2013, 1:34 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Kicker »

Well, I'd say the phoenix lies on a 36x36 grid .
Justinorigami
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: April 14th, 2013, 2:31 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Justinorigami »

Possibly.
I think we are getting off subject. :wink:
Then one day you find, ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. - Pink Floyd, Time
phillipcurl
Moderator
Posts: 1657
Joined: October 25th, 2011, 2:51 pm
Location: Senoia, GA
Contact:

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by phillipcurl »

It isn't box pleated. It uses box-pleated and 22.5 molecules.
I envy his ability to design that way without gussets, which I think can only be obtained by what I would call "natural" design - kind of similar to the original origami models (crane, frog, etc) were designed. I don't know how he does it, but I don't think he can use mathematics (circle packing) like Lang (and others) does to design; as the folding sequences to most of his models are very natural. The mans a genius, that is for sure.
flickr gallery
Youtube channel
Phillip
User avatar
Benlewisorigami
Senior Member
Posts: 479
Joined: November 9th, 2012, 10:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Benlewisorigami »

Well I think the term "box-pleating" can have many different terms. I am pretty positive that Kamiya didn't design the phoenix off of a grid... just saying. He took a pretty basic structure (still a genius design) and sunk certain layers, pleated, and all that fun stuff. But in some of his other models ( like this angel for instance, http://www.folders.jp/g/2000/0004.html ) lays on a grid and looks like he used just bp to design it. I'm not expert on designing, but he uses a trillion different methods for his models
I would rather fail trying than fail without trying....


My flickr :D http://www.flickr.com/photos/89213771@N06/
User avatar
Kafar
Forum Sensei
Posts: 585
Joined: June 15th, 2008, 8:48 am
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Kafar »

Ryu Zin for example is box-pleated, with some elements made in 22,5 structure, but this is used to rotate the boxes at 45 degree. Cyclommatus Metalifer is also boxpleated, but has more fluent structure of the boxes. we could count and count many examples of models and their structures. I think Kamiya designs models, first - by thinking of subject. 2nd by thinking how the finished model would look like, 3rd - by deciding how to arrange the flaps, 4th - by choosing the method (bp or 22,5 or mix). Sometimes as he wrote in the book, he folds the part (mostly the head) and then try to get the rest of the model.
Image
Image
Justinorigami
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: April 14th, 2013, 2:31 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Justinorigami »

I have heard that he uses 22.5 degree angles before. That would explain how his designs are so elegant.

Can anyone explain that sqrt2 stuff that I sometimes see with his crease patterns?

How could I use it in my own designs?
Then one day you find, ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. - Pink Floyd, Time
User avatar
Razzmatazz
Forum Sensei
Posts: 892
Joined: March 20th, 2009, 6:25 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Razzmatazz »

Image

This is the only case I can really think about when you have sqrt(2). Just think the trigonometric triangles and those are your basic angles and one of them has a hypotenuse of sqrt(2).

22.5 is just half of 45 anyways. Maybe that's how you connected them.
bethnor
Buddha
Posts: 1341
Joined: August 17th, 2006, 9:57 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by bethnor »

out of curiosity, what are the criteria for saying the cp is elegant?

for some odd reason which i have no evidence for, it seems to me that many of his designs are "sketched," so form follows of function. as opposed to say, lang, where everything is mapped in advance, so function follows form.
phillipcurl
Moderator
Posts: 1657
Joined: October 25th, 2011, 2:51 pm
Location: Senoia, GA
Contact:

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by phillipcurl »

bethnor wrote:for some odd reason which i have no evidence for, it seems to me that many of his designs are "sketched," so form follows of function.
that is exactly what I was thinking. By "elegant" I think they mean that they fold very naturally once you get the creases, a comparison would be the crane or another classic model.
flickr gallery
Youtube channel
Phillip
bethnor
Buddha
Posts: 1341
Joined: August 17th, 2006, 9:57 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by bethnor »

i'm not a cp expert, but i'm not sure if "elegant" is a description that is apt for kamiya cp. he is popular because he makes complex models that are "cool" to look at. hard to put it into words without sounding off-putting, but his models have the look of an origami version of a detailed drawing that doesn't necessarily have lots of artistic value.

but the actual designs themselves tend to waste lots of paper. i really like the phoenix, have folded dozens of them, but i would be hard pressed to call the cp "elegant." literally over 3/4 of the model appears tied up in the tail. i'm not sure about ryu-zin 3.5, but if i'm correct, it looks like there's a huge amount of paper that is tucked into the belly--which is dizzying when you consider you already are usually starting with squares exceeding 100 cm to start.
Stylus
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: November 23rd, 2007, 8:20 am
Location: New York

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by Stylus »

Well what constitutes an "elegant" folding structure is a fairly philosophical and subjective debate, with no real answer. However, there are some agreed-upon attributes, like efficient use of paper and the way the molecules connect to one another. In my opinion the most elegant of folders, in terms of satisfying and ingenious folding sequences is Hideo Komatsu. But his designs don't always use the paper efficiently: his lion winds up less than a quarter the size of the paper; Kamiya's lion uses paper more efficiently.

Kamiya's designs strike me as the most advanced application of traditional folding techniques: many if not the majority use 22.5 folding. The remarkable thing is apparently he designs them all in his head, although with the more complex models he will sometimes design different sections and then incorporate them together (which in itself is a remarkable design challenge). He also often designs several increasingly complex iterations of a subject, working out design challenges along the way. He is basically a genius: most of us lack this ability to untangle complex design problems using our mind's eye.

Another related skill Kamiya has is the ability to create logical, clear folding sequences and diagram them well. Folding sequences can be quite different than design sequences.

A couple of artists that come to mind as a contrast are Brian Chan or Seth Friendman, who in my opinion are the better artists in terms of finished fold. Their paper selection and lifelike sensitivity of the finished model are incredible. However, their folding sequences are often somewhat tortuous compared with Kamiya's, and the flap arrangement and paper usage don't have the ingenious simplicity of Kamiya's. He seems to care as much about the folding sequence as the finished model.

However, I am not at the level of any of these artists as a designer, so my insights are limited, and you can take all of my observations with a grain of salt I suppose.
shortloldude
Super Member
Posts: 213
Joined: November 22nd, 2009, 3:59 pm

Re: Satoshi Kamiya Design Technique

Post by shortloldude »

but the actual designs themselves tend to waste lots of paper. i really like the phoenix, have folded dozens of them, but i would be hard pressed to call the cp "elegant." literally over 3/4 of the model appears tied up in the tail.
it looks like there's a huge amount of paper that is tucked into the belly--which is dizzying when you consider you already are usually starting with squares exceeding 100 cm to start.
It seems like you are saying this is a bad thing or problematic. Why is it "dizzying" that paper is used up? You complete disregard how amazing the dragon is. When I first understood how he took the top and bottom half and ran then around the layers created, I thought it was genius. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think some people dislike Kamiya because of how popular he is and attempt to throw anything they can at him to make him seem less amazing. This may not be the case for you, and I myself would not call Kamiya my favorite origamist, but having extra paper in certain areas creates lots of depth into models that lots of people I feel falsely create with "3d shaping" and boxpleating.

The tail of his phoenix stands out. It has a very specific look to it, and for all we know Kamiya meant for the layers in the tail to be there in order to have a defined appearance regardless of the thinness of paper used to make it. Adding to that point, the tail is incredibly large on the phoenix. I challenge you personally to create an easily recognizable phoenix with a tail proportionately as long to the model itself as kamiya's is, but with better paper usage.

And I do not mean just pulling out layers to make the model look fancy (for this could be done with Satoshi's phoenix), I mean actually design from the CP one with better paper usage in the tail. I am not a great designer, and maybe such things are simpler than I can think of, but as of right now it does not seem so simple to me.

Justinorigami wrote:I have heard that he uses 22.5 degree angles before. That would explain how his designs are so elegant.

Can anyone explain that sqrt2 stuff that I sometimes see with his crease patterns?

How could I use it in my own designs?
I am pretty sure on OrigamiUSA the fold there is an article by Kamiya about using sqrt in CPs.
Please, add me on flickr and tell me what you think!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/53465278@N02/
Post Reply