New Kamiya Model

[origami_8]

For me the Rjujin is a very elegant model when it comes to paper distribution. I really love how Kamiya managed to get a much longer sheet by using the opposite edges of the paper and shifting them in a way to obtain a far longer model than would otherwise be possible with a square. You may or may not agree that using a square is necessary, for me it makes part of the charm of the model that it really is from one square without cuts. I'm a little bit amused by bethnor's argumentation. On the one hand he is criticizing the one square sheet rule and accuses everyone using it of being closed-minded, on the other hand he doesn't accept any of the arguments that people try to give for their different opinion being a little bit closed-minded himself.
So far I haven't folded the model myself, therefore I can not say how much internal support, glue and wire are really necessary. If it is really not possible to get a decent result without these tools it surely takes away some of the charm, but still I think that it is a structural interesting model and I've yet to see a similarly amazing one sheet model from a long strip of paper. If it is so much more efficient and easier to do, why hasn't anyone done it yet? One other thing that the internal layers may provide is further support to obtain a nicely rounded body. Just my two cents.

[HankSimon]

I want to weigh into the philosophy of artistic creation. On a deep level, if you understand the history and the pedigree of a work of art - Picasso's synthesis of two styles, Beethoven's incremental departure from the old to create the new, Lang's 25 year trek to perfect a model, the evolution of many folders on this forum from cookbook style [ that's mine ] to lego logs compositions to organic art with shaping - then you can appreciate and understand the nuance of the art even more. This makes you both a better observer as well as a better practitioner.

Given that a work of art is completely indistinguishable from its source of manufacture, I believe that you can equally appreciate the beauty of the photographed picture, the digitized symphony, the automated model. IN fact, some manufacturing processes can reproduce art... and some folders can fold better ... than the original piece.

So we come back to the question - Is manufactured as good as handmade? Does multiplicity, resulting in a lack of rarity and uniqueness, cheapen the experience? Subjectively, for someone who would obtain the 'copy' I believe the answer is no. For someone who has the original, I believe the answer is yes.

The 'restriction' in the argument of appearing identical, simplifies my answer. A sunset is identical to most people. Each one is unique to anyone who watching and observes.

BTW, I think the next stage of Origami is the organic style, typified by Giang Dihn, et al., where shaping is the majority of the creation.

[malifold]

The purity of origami should not depend on whether or not MC is applied, since all you're doing is applying sizing to the paper, like one does when back-coating paper or preparing it for wetfolding, to make one of those sculptural models you prefer. As for adding wire, IMO adding wire inside the model sure beats making a wire stand. Does that affect the purity? The genius of Kamiya's models is that he finds clever ways to achieve an end result: wrapping scales around to sides of a square for the ryujin, designing a snake using an X shape, getting an unbelievable amount of points in, like his leafysea dragon, or insects, a dagonal shell to wrap the belly of his new turtle, or great color changes, like his tiger or dog.
Bottom line: criticize if you can do better.

[Edg]

I'd agree with what you said, apart from that last bit. Are you saying you never criticise anything in life unless you can better it...really? Also, seems a bit rude to state your point then tell everyone to keep their opinions to themselves.

[bethnor]

many of you are confusing pure with right or good. that is just false. just because one states that a model is not pure, does not mean that it lacks aesthetic value. i.e., much of leo lai's, dao quyet's, joseph wu, etc., etc. but purism is purism. one square, no cuts, no glue. at this point, the origami world is OVERFLOWING with models that break those rules, but are still aesthetically pleasing. if you guys want, it's not too hard to find the posts where you, the good reader express surprise and disappointment that kamiya uses glue. that obviously has passed. the reality is, it is probably necessary. purism, at this point, is merely an illusion. for instance, people are still trying to find reference marks in lang models with folds, when one can clearly see the CP scored in the presentation model of the yellow jacket!

anna, i very clearly stated that just because i thought that the model wastes paper does not make it ugly, hideous, or wrong. and i hate to point out--again--that literally, i was the first to comment on how ingenious the design was on the forum, so i recognize that. i am just noting there is a huge amount of unused paper, which apparently is tucked into the model. which there is. i don't see why people are getting their underwear in a twist about that.

and i am not criticizing the one square rule, just pointing out that it is merely being arbitrarily adhered to. which it is. that purism does not call for a circle, or a rectangle, or a rhombus, is almost entirely an accident of history. and even if you haven't folded the model, anna, the forum is RIFE with descriptions on how it is done. 1) it is OBVIOUS simply MC'ing a large sheet is impractical, because very few people even have a flat surface that large that it can dry on, not to mention cleaning up the mess that would be involved 2) all the very common "large" rolls, like brown kraft, tracing paper, etc., etc., are ENORMOUSLY springy, the only way you'll even BEGIN to get it to stay is with tons of adultering.

malifold, i have already stated that the position that one should only speak when one can do better is a ridiculous one that has NEVER held any weight in the world of art, and NEVER will.

[malifold]

I meant more like use constructive criticism instead of complaining. That came out wrong. Oops.
And I think I used that phrase to answer another topic.

IMO, purism is:
1: NO CUTS
2: From a square
3: From a regular polygon
4: rectangles and modular origami.
The closer to the top, the more I prefer to use that way, ie I never cut, 90% of the time use squares, then mostly hexagons, then rarely modular or long strips.

[origami_8]

it is OBVIOUS simply MC'ing a large sheet is impractical, because very few people even have a flat surface that large that it can dry on, not to mention cleaning up the mess that would be involved

I guess it could be done in in stages. Starting by making one sheet as large as your glass surface allows and let it dry. Then make a second one slightly overlapping the first one. Continuing like this it should be possible to obtain a sheet large enough to fold the model.
It is also possible to fold the model from a sheet well under a meter in size. I've seen a good bunch folded from that size or smaller, so I know it is possible. Obviously you shouldn't start with your best paper for the trial folds but I also imagine the iridescent shadow fold paper Nicolas Terry sells in 60x60cm appropriate.
The cheap springy Kraft paper rolls are good for test folds, but if you want a decent display model you definitely need to use good paper too. But that's the case for each and every Origami model and not just this dragon.

[bethnor]

anna, you're really trying too hard. if you haven't, you should take a look at a copy of world of super complex origami. kamiya isn't just putting on a little dab of glue here or there. he's literally slathering it on with a q-tip, and, though i don't read japanese, by all appearances, he's recommending you do it too. and that's with the kabutomushi, something that holds its shape perfectly well with some kind of foil-based paper. and one can only guess he's slathering on glue even though he no doubt has expensive, hand-made paper up the wazoo.

of course, i have no doubt there are ppl with the skill to do 10 cm ryu-zin, but the model loses some of its grandeur as minigami, IMHO.

it's interesting that ppl are accusing me of kamiya-bashing. to me, it doesn't diminish in the slightest the aesthetic appeal of his work that he uses glue or otherwise "cheats." that's you guys.

[origami_8]

Thank you, I have the book. For me the challenge would still be to fold it without glue. I'm well aware that Satoshi Kamiya, Brian Chan and many other big names have absolutely no problem to use it and with its help create wonderful works of art. Yet I still like to test out my personal boundaries trying to see how far I can go without using glue. For me everyone is entitled to use whatever tools he feels comfortable using. The rules that I use on myself only apply for me and no one else and those rules include no cuts, no glue only regular polygons and rectangles, multiple pieces only if they hold together without glue.

[phillipcurl]

I don't think that glue, wire, or other supports detract from any model. I'll admit, I've used them in the past multiple times. It is quite possible to obtain the same quality of work without those things,which I've also done. It really does help, though, to have some extra support... especially if you plan on making display pieces that need to last and withstand the grasping hands of young children. I don't believe that the people who have or do use extra support in their origami are doing so because it is a crutch - they are doing it because they are making art and they don't want it to fall apart on them anytime soon. Saying that using any form of extra support should be shunned, to me, is like saying you shouldn't use paper that has been dyed with an archival pigment. It preserves the piece you worked for hours to get. Regardless of what you do to preserve the model, I still consider it art.

[Mir Numaan]

every thing is legal except cuts in a display piece. I think all these VOG folders use ton of glue to make these beautiful models. Ryujin is the cleverest design in origami and you guys are criticizing it coz u don't have the patience and ability to fold. The next level of origami will be ultra complex! Where every folder could solve CPs.

[Bubo]

Efficiency is difficult to quantify in art. While I can't disagree with any of Bethnor's facts I would debate the conclusion. While many artists have created origami from shapes other than squares Kamiya certainly favours the square (I can't think of any of his models that don't use one). If one accepts as starting points: a detailed chinese dragon, folded from a square; then Kamiya's Ryuzin 3.5 is ingeniously efficient in its use of paper as pointed out by Anna. Only if you remove the second requirement can it be argued as inefficient - but even then someone would have to produce a model that looks essentially identical from another shape with a greater % of exposed paper. All those hidden layers do lend the body a certain weight and may be quite integral to its aesthetic appeal.

Efficiency in origami is something that I appreciate a lot more with minimilistic folds such as those of Dinh Giang. Efficiency is not something that I think about much when appreciating more complex works so it surprises me somewhat that the efficiency of Ryuzin is an issue (not to be confused with the practical problems of folding it - that I can understand). Although I was surprised to learn about the use of MC, glue etc at first that was many years ago now. Increasingly I have come to accept and use MC, PVA and wire as necessary to achieve certain aesthetic results. I recently folded the sailfish from VOG 2 using a 40cm piece of Terry foil. The only way I could compress the narrow pectoral fins and get them to hold their shape was by glueing the layers before the final valley fold to narrow them. There are many other models that can only be permanently shaped through "non-purist" methods be they MC, PVA or tissue foil.

We will all "draw our lines" of what is acceptable or pleasing in different places and that OK. That said I was quite disappointed to see those dotted lines on Lang's wasp - especially as others have folded this, as well as he has, without such printed lines.

[Rosugamer]

every thing is legal except cuts in a display piece. I think all these VOG folders use ton of glue to make these beautiful models. Ryujin is the cleverest design in origami and you guys are criticizing it coz u don't have the patience and ability to fold. The next level of origami will be ultra complex! Where every folder could solve CPs.

This is called being rude.
It's subjective whether a certain design is the most clever, and alarming to say that the only reason the said design is bad is because of jealousy of the certain design, resulting in spiteful criticism.

[Mir Numaan]

sorry if i was rude, sorry!! but isn't the ryujin a great design? It can be done without glue and mc, don't you think so?

[Swapnil Das]

No, I don't think so, Mir. The two ends of the body where you have to use glue doesn't have any tabs or locks to perform a lock without glue. And for curving the body, It could be possible if you use a strong enough paper.