Origami Piracy
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I dont want to get in the middle of this, but I was the one wanting to buy the book. So just to clarify, I did not pay $1600 for that book, alot less, but that's my business.
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I guess the answer to that question is how much value you assign to learning how to fold maekawa's devil. How much is something worth? It's worth whatever someone is willing to pay. Think about a Mickey Mantle rookie baseball card. It probably cost less than five cents new, but due to the demand for it, people are willing to pay thousands. The same applies here.should an average folder have to pan out ~ $1600 to learn maekawa's devil, or should they just fuhgettaboutit?
it is not the same.
it is not even remotely the same.
if i were to copy your mickey mantle rookie baseball card, everyone would know it is a xerox copy, so the copy would not have the same value. if i took the mona lisa and scanned it into my computer and printed it out with a color laser printer, everyone would know it is not the real mona lisa.
if someone were to xerox the local library copy of viva! origami, you could learn how to fold the devil costing a few cents, or pontentially for free. it does not have the "collector's value" that a real copy of viva! origami might, but you nevertheless can recreate all the models within (what most folders are presumably after). another example would be yoshino's book. the diagrams were done on computer, and are presumably still on file somewhere in the depths of gallery origami house. i still have my copy of "super complex origami"... how about i put it on ebay for $1000. why should someone pay $1000 for the book... when, somewhere, someone could hit the "print" button and give you the instructions for everything in there for free?
as i've said before. if there are legal diagrams, somewhere, something should be done to ease the legal acquisition of them (note that this does not mean make them cheaper or free... in the example of out of print books, the first step is to make them available). currently there is no answer to this dilemma.
it is not even remotely the same.
if i were to copy your mickey mantle rookie baseball card, everyone would know it is a xerox copy, so the copy would not have the same value. if i took the mona lisa and scanned it into my computer and printed it out with a color laser printer, everyone would know it is not the real mona lisa.
if someone were to xerox the local library copy of viva! origami, you could learn how to fold the devil costing a few cents, or pontentially for free. it does not have the "collector's value" that a real copy of viva! origami might, but you nevertheless can recreate all the models within (what most folders are presumably after). another example would be yoshino's book. the diagrams were done on computer, and are presumably still on file somewhere in the depths of gallery origami house. i still have my copy of "super complex origami"... how about i put it on ebay for $1000. why should someone pay $1000 for the book... when, somewhere, someone could hit the "print" button and give you the instructions for everything in there for free?
as i've said before. if there are legal diagrams, somewhere, something should be done to ease the legal acquisition of them (note that this does not mean make them cheaper or free... in the example of out of print books, the first step is to make them available). currently there is no answer to this dilemma.
I agree with you that diagrams should be more readily available. I would be willing to pay a fee for access to such things. But alas they are not.
I was taken by something you wrote about photocopying pages from a book in the library. You do realize that doing so constitutes copyright infringement, yes? At least in the United States. According to section 107 of US Law, photocopying "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship or research, is not an infringement of copyright." I'd say that the average folder going to the library and copying the pages of a book does not fall under any of those categories. Note I say average because there are instances where the folder would be justified in their photocopying.
I was taken by something you wrote about photocopying pages from a book in the library. You do realize that doing so constitutes copyright infringement, yes? At least in the United States. According to section 107 of US Law, photocopying "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship or research, is not an infringement of copyright." I'd say that the average folder going to the library and copying the pages of a book does not fall under any of those categories. Note I say average because there are instances where the folder would be justified in their photocopying.
Bethnor, I shared your feelings for over a decade about Viva! Origami. I really got frustrated, I really wanted the book.
And I probably wont fold anything from it, so in my case it is more a collectors item than a book of diagrams.
But frustration or not, nobody (not even Maekawa himself- and I did try contact him on several occasions, and then got a Japanese speaking person to translate my affinity towards Viva! Origami to him), was going to reprint that book. Sure, most of the diagrams in there are available elsewhere, but to me it was still worth while to purchase the book 2nd hand and pay a hefty price for it. It may not make sence to alot of people, but it does to me.
But were not on that topic. This topic is moving into out of print books, and your question was not to me, so I'm not trying to put a spanner in the works. Just that I feel your frustration, but it takes more to reprint a book than to just push the print button.
And if they push that print button on Viva! Origami anytime soon, I'm gonna feel like a real idiot!!
And I probably wont fold anything from it, so in my case it is more a collectors item than a book of diagrams.
But frustration or not, nobody (not even Maekawa himself- and I did try contact him on several occasions, and then got a Japanese speaking person to translate my affinity towards Viva! Origami to him), was going to reprint that book. Sure, most of the diagrams in there are available elsewhere, but to me it was still worth while to purchase the book 2nd hand and pay a hefty price for it. It may not make sence to alot of people, but it does to me.
But were not on that topic. This topic is moving into out of print books, and your question was not to me, so I'm not trying to put a spanner in the works. Just that I feel your frustration, but it takes more to reprint a book than to just push the print button.
And if they push that print button on Viva! Origami anytime soon, I'm gonna feel like a real idiot!!
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Joseph Wu
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Boy, posting that link was better than I thought! 
The fine point for me is the question of who is hitting that print button. If someone owns the duplication rights for the book, then they can choose to do something about redistribution (whether electronically or in print). We can and should encourage them to do so. When we take that out of their hands and make the books available via the internet, that's just wrong (on many levels).
The fine point for me is the question of who is hitting that print button. If someone owns the duplication rights for the book, then they can choose to do something about redistribution (whether electronically or in print). We can and should encourage them to do so. When we take that out of their hands and make the books available via the internet, that's just wrong (on many levels).
Yes, I am that Joseph Wu. Not that it really matters. And please call me Joseph or Joe. "Mr. Wu" is my dad.
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Joe the white
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On the topic of book prices, what you pay for today on a book is quite the bargain. Thats merely a fraction of the amount it would cost you in time and travel to learn in person what a book can teach you.
I'd have to disagree on the baseball cards analogy, origami books are collected vigorously by many students and enthusiasts of the art. Some personal libraries totalling in upwards of 700 to 4,000 books! If you're in to the books for diagrams alone, the price should put you off, seeing as those in particular are mostly reprinted (as previously mentioned) and still available. Again, a large part of the issue isn't so much the money, but the respect. Its the internet age, and the authors of your favorite works/books are rarely without contact information, you just have to ask around.
I'd rather pay for a hard copy original of a book. Dedication sometimes requires sacrifice. Besides, its the only legal and respectful way to get these books until copyrights no longer apply.
I'd have to disagree on the baseball cards analogy, origami books are collected vigorously by many students and enthusiasts of the art. Some personal libraries totalling in upwards of 700 to 4,000 books! If you're in to the books for diagrams alone, the price should put you off, seeing as those in particular are mostly reprinted (as previously mentioned) and still available. Again, a large part of the issue isn't so much the money, but the respect. Its the internet age, and the authors of your favorite works/books are rarely without contact information, you just have to ask around.
I'd rather pay for a hard copy original of a book. Dedication sometimes requires sacrifice. Besides, its the only legal and respectful way to get these books until copyrights no longer apply.
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Ondrej.Cibulka
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Books have such feature that they are sometimes sold out. It is their nature. We need to be resigned to that things and borrow it in the library or buy it in second-hand-store. Or we can be angry, that it is out of print... 
Ondrej Cibulka Origami, www.origamido.cz
you're being quite literal. it would also be illegal for me to break into the louvre, take the mona lisa, and scan it into a computer.notefolds wrote: I was taken by something you wrote about photocopying pages from a book in the library. You do realize that doing so constitutes copyright infringement, yes? At least in the United States. According to section 107 of US Law, photocopying "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship or research, is not an infringement of copyright." I'd say that the average folder going to the library and copying the pages of a book does not fall under any of those categories. Note I say average because there are instances where the folder would be justified in their photocopying.
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nonkelgans
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Ondrej.Cibulka
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You will scan it because you cannot have it in your living room - it is out of print. 
Ondrej Cibulka Origami, www.origamido.cz
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halogen64
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Does this topic really deserve to be a sticky, I mean come on. Whether or not people complain about this on this forum the law pretty much says it is wrong and it isn't going to change. Some people are going to do it anyway and try to get away with it or people are going to buy the books. It's as simple as that and really doesn't require 7+ pages to discuss. I also think people on this forum are probably lying because no one is going to admit that they do scan or have scanned diagrams/books on their computer. However, I think if a third party creates a solution to a crease pattern they should be able to distribute that since it is their work (or interpretation). In fact I may publish my solutions to these in this forum since I believe people should have access to them. Check back in a few days if you are interested.
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TheRealChris
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nopeDoes this topic really deserve to be a sticky,
so am I really the only one that starting to get bored by this stupid black-or-white question?Some people are going to do it anyway and try to get away with it or people are going to buy the books.
well... obviously it does. the way to go for you is pretty easy: just don't read the discussion, if it really bother youand really doesn't require 7+ pages to discuss.
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Ondrej.Cibulka
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Why to spend so much time and effort? Buy any book about painting and scan picture of Mona Lisa from there.bethnor wrote:you're being quite literal. it would also be illegal for me to break into the louvre, take the mona lisa, and scan it into a computer.
I am not sure, what do you mean. It is not black-white, as everything in law, you need only better lawyer.TheRealChris wrote:so am I really the only one that starting to get bored by this stupid black-or-white question?Some people are going to do it anyway and try to get away with it or people are going to buy the books.
Ondrej Cibulka Origami, www.origamido.cz
