Origami Piracy

[rdrutel]

I will be honest...I would be pissed if I worked my dukakis off and people stole and used my material for all the wrong reasons. But I understand that it WILL happen. Moving on to morality...
Moral and immoral are socially contructed ideas. Look at how obvious it is from your statement. You place no value on the cow as a sacred animal because you have been raised that way and our society here has no problem with it. If society has no problem with something...it will be embraced and continued. You think anyone will care what Jeoss calls immoral? Or any individual for that matter. Ideas of morality and immorality at times have foundations on religious principles. You know dictator Muammar Qaddafi once said "All the greatest prophets came from the desert...Muhammad, Jesus, and Myself." Look it up...he didn't name you. So you saying this is immoral while that is not....


ROD

[JeossMayhem]

That's not for you to decide, I'm pretty sure. Like rdrutel said, what's immoral to you might me perfectly acceptable to me, and vice-versa. I'm not criticizing your judgement, by the way, but rather the argument you used to support it.

You're absolutely right but I wasn't trying to be the one who decides what is moral or immoral, but perhaps I'm just having a hard time finding a better word to replace morals... I felt my definition was just an example that anyone can understand, because nobody likes to build a house of card just so a jerk can knock it down. I didn't mean to imply that my definition of the morality concerning the stealing of someone's work was 'righteous', but one that nobody can respond with "actually, I like having my life work stolen all the time because I/everyone thinks it's right." You get what I mean? or maybe I overcomplicated things.

Maybe the word 'conscience' works better then...

Maybe I'm trying to say that not enough people have developed a conscience that prevents them from any impulse to steal. Perhaps they feel it's ok because it happens to them or just because they know noone else will know. I am NOT saying that those with a stronger conscience are better people than those who done, but in this case, practice 'healthier', non-destructive social habits.

The question is if the world would be a better place if everyone respected other people's work, instead of allowing theft to fuel more theft. Can I get consensus here? This is why I feel that no one here should have qualms with carrying out what Brill requests. "Because the snowball is unstoppable" or because "it WILL happen" shouldn't be a reason to refuse to, and neither should "because it allows me to review what I want to buy" because there's plenty of resources to reference for that function, including this forum and Gilad's site. Wouldn't the situation become better if we all made a conscious effort to report sites such as the one Brill mentioned? If not, how does it contribute to worsening it? The bottom line is we shouldn't treat others any different than we'd want to be treated.

I feel like I'm done with this discussion.. I'm not going to spend any more time with this and wish I would have spent more time folding than arguing. I'm hoping that at least somebody got something out of all this...

[Joseph Wu]

You know, all of this discussion about relative legality and morality is really just muddying the waters. There are two underlying issues that seem to key to understanding what's going on here.

1. People want diagrams. This might seem obvious, but it really is a problem because of the current attitude of entitlement and instant gratification that exists in our world today.
   1. You can't always get what you want. The fact that origami designers have been generous enough to share their work means that origami enthusiasts have it good beyond what is available to those in any other art form. I believe that the origami public has become spoiled. When I was a boy, I remember a saying on the playground: "gimme gimme never get, don't you know your manners yet?" I was taught that the correct response to generosity was gratitude, and that a response of demanding more indicated that someone was spoiled. Looks like that's not true any more.
   2. Why do you have to have it, anyway? I've said it many times, and so have others, but in no other visual art are the artists expected to produce instructions for how to duplicate their work. Where are the paint by number kits for Rembrant or Van Gogh? Why aren't people hounding their favourite living painters to make such kits? In every other visual art I can think of, people wishing to learn study technique and the finished works of the great masters. Why are students of origami so different? Imitation occurs in all arts, but duplication in arts other than origami is often referred to as forgery.
2. Designers feel violated. Whether monetary or not, whether real or imagined, whether deliberate or not, this is an unalterable fact. You can argue all you want about whether or not downloading of diagrams is legal or moral or whatever. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. You can continue to try to justify downloading, and effectively say you don't give a damn about how your actions might affect designers, or you can start thinking about how to make a difference. You can do this for whatever altruistic reasons you want, or you can do it out of self-interest. Because if you want something out of someone, the best way to get it is to give them reasons to want to give it to you.

[nonkelgans]

Well said Joseph.


As for downloading diagrams. Of course people want diagrams, if those didn't exist in the first place everybody would have to start at square 0, you would have to find all the bases on your own and not many would have the change to evolve into good folders. Goth, I would never became the folder I am today without all those diagrams but this was before internet became big and you still had to buy books (luckily I had a big secondhand bookshop with a large collection of Origami books for very cheap prices, being a kid of 16 all my allowance went to paper and origami books but I surely couldn't afford new books). But as much as I like all those diagrams it's still the work and the idea of somebody else and while I respect the effort they put into it I rather like my own designs, not that they are the greatest or that I have many but the few floral designs I have created really give me the feeling what other designers must feel when they finish their own. Therefore, I think some people here have to think outside the box and try to develop their own foldings rather then download all those diagrams. I'm not saying downloading the free-ware is wrong, if a designer decides that his/her work is considered to be free then so it is. But downloading protected material is not honoring the man/woman who designed it.

All in all we may be happy that some designers put free stuff online too, so we can learn without breaking our banks but people should also experiment without following diagrams. The idea behind Origami is to be creative, not to be a drone that follows instructions like a robot. I often give foldings to girls on parties and I have the most joy in giving them one of the flowers I designed myself. They often ask where I learned that and when I tell them I designed it by myself they are often more surprised. And that gives far more gratitude than having to say I followed some diagram from a book.

[aesthetistician]

I love moral debates. No, really I do. It's all so interesting!

Here's a question: what's the moral difference between learning all the diagrams in a library book, photocopying the book, and downloading all the diagrams in the book?

No, what's the difference between teaching the models to a friend, giving them a photocopy of the book, and e-mailing diagrams to them?

Is there a difference in culpability between the person who downloads copyrighted material and the person who makes copyrighted material available for download?

[TheRealChris]

oh nooooo.... [img]http://freenet-homepage.de/origamichris ... /icon5.gif[/img] WARMONGER WARMONGER WARMONGER [img]http://freenet-homepage.de/origamichris/ablage/ahhh.gif[/img]
[img]http://freenet-homepage.de/origamichris ... histle.gif[/img]

[aesthetistician]

Oh, I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to warmonger, I just thought that those were questions relevant to the discussion we're having here. I don't have all the answers - there may not even be definitive answers - but isn't it worth asking them anyway?

[rdrutel]

The idea behind Origami is to be creative, not to be a drone that follows instructions like a robot. I often give foldings to girls on parties and I have the most joy in giving them one of the flowers I designed myself. They often ask where I learned that and when I tell them I designed it by myself they are often more surprised. And that gives far more gratitude than having to say I followed some diagram from a book.

Since the above was shoved into this topic publicly , probably will not be corrected, and expresses something I am firmly against, I feel the need to address it. Imagine being force fed a food you hate, but someone else says it has the best taste in the world and they love it and that is why you should love it too. Because you like CP's or you like to design stuff means nothing. Your definition of origami or what about it pleasures you does not transcend any one's definition. I like a finished product...CP or not...I do not care how I get there, but I prefer diagrams over the struggle and frustration of not succeeding at a CP. Sure designing is great, I am about to finish something I will be very proud of, but that doesn't mean I will be chauvinistic and rate my accomplishment as any better than another individuals because we think differently. An accomplishment is an accomplishment. This point you made questions if you are following a major point in this discussion at all, which is how actions are defined differently between people, justified here but not there. This I believe is a part of the problem. It is with those people that think differently, will be unstoppable in their pursuit of sharing and do not follow a logical idea such as the RealChris method, that the problem will continue. Because their thought processes lead them to "This is the way it should be and the other way is wrong or worse and I like it so it's fine." I cannot foresee a disappearance of these people. The problem can certainly be kept at bay and this is evident with the occurrence addressed at the start of this topic. But, since this is not a final solution, the said problem has to be accepted and if it is not, it will lead to no books or magazines or models being published by authors that feel the robbery is too much. It is very simple and unfortunate at the same time.

ROD

[origami_8]

The idea behind Origami is to be creative, not to be a drone that follows instructions like a robot.

That may be your point of view but isn't always true.
Origami has always been my hobby. I didn't even want to design my own models for a long time. My main target always was to refold models the best I can. The process of folding was important to me. The finished outcome is nice too, but that's not my main target, neither is designing. Origami may be an art form, but for me it is primary my hobby. I'm not very creative at all, so Origami gave me everything I wanted and that's not only techniques but also many many instructions.
The few models I have come up with are nearly all diagrammed or at least I plan to diagram them. Most of these diagrams are available for free on the Origami Austria homepage, some have been published in BOS Convention books and some in Gerwin Sturm's book "Origami - Kreative Falt-Ideen".

[araknoid]

back to save the sparrow.

it would be so good to see people stop living like on planet of the apes and noticing that we're now in the 21st century (as long as you choose to count years in that way, of course)

instead we get whining and patronizing from self-appointed preacher-teachers with obvious personal interests.

yeah let's talk about moral issues, yeah that's theft, yeah coscience is something only a selected precious few have (notice the verb)...

come on boys and girls an afternoon in the library it's a lot of fun!
oh wait what you say?
in your country there's been a bombing and the library's gone?
in your town the library has only dan brown best-sellers?

hang on true believer!
those swell guys in the army had a wonderful idea they called the arpanet...
in the future everyone will live in alexandria and paper will be used to make wonderful folds.

[Morgan]

my opinion is this.. i like to download origami... i am facinated that someone as simple as me can fold amazing creations..the doma.. the freakin dancing crane... some i would never have been able to get otherwise. i am a musician, i know of the troubles of work getting stolen, in the long run, it just happens.. and im greatfull that anyone would take the time to like my work enough to want it in their possession so badly... like someone tapes my show, sells it..i get no money, but now people are listening to my art man!! its amazing respect!! BUT there is more to it..

someone mentioned also about some may not have become the folders they are today without the books they bought..well i know i wouldnt be.. not nearly.. and how some are out of print, and not available. I taught myself music, and found myself in the natural surroundings of my desire for art and muse.. the world uhmm how should i say.. "gave" me the situations i needed to become who i am today. and the hard truth is, some people dont get instruments. some people just do not get origami diagrams. i would actually think of diagraming ending as not such a bad thing. it will sift out the "real" origami artists. the ones who seek and formulate their lifes into dedication of something beyond themselves.

in other words what i am saying is the world is not fair, but you can have and be whatever you want if you focus yourself, and truley dedicate your life to whatever it is you want. period. its that easy. no money. no greed... just LIVE IT! :D so if you actaully get to see a folded peice of art ( which by the way is breath taking if you have ever had the PRIVILEDGE to see) and you do research and fin the artist, he might talk to you and teach you as an intern or maybe not...maybe nothign happens, but you took the time to adventure, to learn!

Peace... AND LIVE IT!

[Ondrej.Cibulka]

I have one another idea.
My boss (he is 63) wrote book about luminescence with his colleague. It is work which crowns his whole-work-life about luminescence. He is collecting data and writing it almost whole scientific life, abou 25 years. His price for this effort was 25 000 Kč (approx. 1000 EUR) what is one average salary fot the month in the Czech republic.
My previous boss (77) also finished his crown-book. And czech academic publisher said him, that they will not publish it. And you cry here for three-year origami book...

[origami_roast]

I have a question. Can you make a video and post it in a public site? From diagrams that are legal. From maybe like, http://www.origami.com? Is it ok to do that?

[Joe the white]

I believe in paying people for their efforts and support them in their work. To download a book and not support an author is bad, but posting a book so the entire web can find it is horrible. Between friends, at a regional meeting or convention, thats fairly ok. Its not uncommon for someone to say, "I'll take it to Kinko's and get you a copy of X diagram if you want".

I understand the want to share knowledge, but when that hurts the creators, it hurts the community as a whole. Origami House, publishers of all those Tanteidan Convention books and individual's books can't continue on without support. I see those shared like crazy. Robert Lang, yeah hes a laser physicist, but what makes him want to share his origami design secrets? Certainly its not for the money. I'm sure he gets paid, but who travels around the world doing interviews and writing super complex insect books for their health? Money is a necessary evil involved in all of this, but respect and support is another. Being poor in ones pocket shouldn't make one poor in character.

[araknoid]

dear joe did you read what you've written?
...