Origami Piracy

qtrollip · Post by **qtrollip** » March 26th, 2008, 10:03 pm

Oh dear Rod, you again.
Is it a lack of self esteem or just plain attention seeking that you thought my post was aimed directly at you. Maybe it is your poor reading skills or inability to interpret my post.
How is it that when I complimented you on your Shibaraku, that you never replied, but you are always ready for a fight or a direct attack at someone. Why not PM me instead? Hopefully you'll grow up one day and get a life!
Also, maybe if you volunteer on a weekly basis at sport events, animal protection events, work with disabled children, you wouldnt have accused me of doing everything for monetary gain!!
More to the point, I have made numerous diagrams for people asking for them. I have sent many diagrams to origami convention magazines, even gave the BOS 15+ diagrammed models to publish in a booklet. And I dont get any monetary gain from any of that either!
Maybe if you ever design anything and diagram it, this topic would make more sence to you and you would read what is written and not read what you want to read!
I'm not gonna re-write my prior post in a language that you can understand, but if you read it again without the bad attitude that you used the first time you read it, it will make more sence to that arrogant brain of yours!
And another piece of advice, do not bring religion/the Bible into this!
So PM me if you want to carry on with this little venture of personal attack.
And stop fishing, rod!

Post by **origami_8** » March 26th, 2008, 10:10 pm

Both of you, ROD and Quentin, stop this flame war NOW!

Are we in kindergarten? I thought I would be under serious people here, not under huffy children.

qtrollip · Post by **qtrollip** » March 26th, 2008, 11:28 pm

Ok, sorry Origami_8 and other forum members, that was not my style!

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » March 26th, 2008, 11:31 pm

Anna, if you haven't noticed, Rod is always the one inciting the arguments, on a personal level. Are we not allowed to defend ourselves? Or maybe we should nip the problem in the bud... Let's just keep things like this in PMs, alright?!

Anyway... we know that everything that is published gets thrown online and freely distributed. At the core it's disrespectful and gives no compensation for the designer who wants to hard-bind his works so other people can learn from them. Like so many users on other fourms, Rod apparently wants everyone to ignore this issue and let it go. We shouldn't give up just because it's a war we can't win or because everyone else has. Do the right thing and notify Brill and company so they can get whatever justice they can, because for sure they deserve it. Sure it's fun to sack and pillage from others, until other people have done it to you.

rdrutel · Post by **rdrutel** » March 26th, 2008, 11:31 pm

sure anna...i will stop discussing after the first response was directed at me...
i certainly needed correcting after my previous post and he certainly needs it in the above...

my point is with Dave, no one will be able to stop the sharing but the effort to plug the flood is righteous...so do what you wish...but there will always be a shadow

Post by **origami_8** » March 26th, 2008, 11:42 pm

There's nothing to say against a heavy discussion as long as no personal attacks are involved. So let us all get back on topic, hopefully without any more quarrellings.

Post by **TheRealChris** » March 27th, 2008, 12:12 am

so if 100 books are sold that would be 150€

well, as I said somewhen before: a little of a bit is better than all of nothing

there's one very point missing in this discussion:
if somebody does download a book, he wouldn't necessarily buy that book in the case that he wouldn't have gotten it digitally (hope that sentence makes sense

).
if you can get your fingers (respectivly your mouse) onto a book, your inner collector instinkt is awakening. I do download a lot stuff, but I'm not a lost customer. I have more (legally bought) music cds than all of my friends together (the same with video dvds), and I own around 100 origami books. I don't feel guilty with downloading stuff from the net, because as I said before, I'm not a lost customer. if I like a book, I will sooner or later buy it, if I like a music CD I will buy it... if I don't buy it, I would have never done. I really like to fold from "real books" rather than from copies, thats probably the biggest pro to real books.
what I like to say is, that everybody is responsible for himself, and the scene will never die. if you cut off a head two new ones will spawn on different location. everybody needs to think about his very own doings. if you forbid something, most people will probably do it for this reason. its hard to change people (near to impossible), and somebody that doesn't understand the morally reasons of this discussion would continue downloading everything he will find and not buy a single piece. In my personal definition, I'm not doing it wrong, because I do buy... even more than most people I know. that may not be right, but good enough for me.
I'm getting lost in my own words... damn

pharmjod · Post by **pharmjod** » March 27th, 2008, 5:02 am

After much consideration I thought I would throw in my $0.02 worth (as if anyone really cares what a forum lurker really has to say :) Anyway...

I would first like to thank Dave Brill and those designers mentioned on the open letter and those that are not. You all have contributed to the wonderful art and hobby that is Origami and I am constantly inspired and amazed at your works (a good many--diagrams or not--I'll probably never be able to fold :)

I don't fold as much as I used to, or as much as I would like to, but I do collect more now than I ever have. I have been blessed with the resources to collect the books and magazines that I want and I totally get therealchris when he describes the collector instinct that comes from new discoveries. I would love for someone to get bored with their JOAS Icarus or Violinist diagrams and put them on Ebay or offer them up for sale in some way (hint hint anyone here on the forum want to make a good profit just let me know :) My collection continues to grow, much to my wife's chagrin, but I love the thrill of the hunt. I am a member of JOAS, OUSA and BOS and gladly pay my dues each year and purchase materials from each organization as often as the budget and my whim allows. I have been folding since I was 9 years old off and on, and I am now 30, and only in the last few years have I become aware of the wide world of international Origami publications. Needless to say I'm behind on the collection.

This brings me to the discussion at hand. I have downloaded quite a bit of material. Outside of weird foreign publications that I wouldn't even know where to begin to look to obtain, I have nearly every book I have downloaded and if I don't, its on my list to purchase sooner rather than later (so many books are seeming to go out of print quickly these days). My collection is in excess of 200 books at my last estimate and I have no plans to stop acquiring books (again, much to my wife's dismay). Like therealchris, I may be a minority in this regard, but I don't really feel that I am doing anything wrong. I love having diagrams instantly portable on my laptop. Also--especially with JOAS books--its is much easier to have them on the computer than to try to prop the book open and break the spine or whatever (yes I'm anal-retentive with a hyphen about keeping my books in good condition).

So there is that. I think the point that is being made by some of the posters isn't that you should just give up policing your material, but to realize that it is ultimately a futile attempt and to be OK with that going into the fight. Battles of principle are perfectly acceptable and honorable ones to fight. The suggestion to evolve (which I may be incorrectly inferring from multiple posts and I apologize if this is the case) is also a valid one.

I can't help but wonder if some of this principled battle might not be better served by exploring new models (no pun intended) of business and distribution. This may be completely unrealistic and ignorant and if so I welcome any and all criticism. Prior to the Internet, the only effective way that an Origami designer had to distribute his or her models/diagrams was to go through fledgling groups like OUSA or BOS via snail mail, or to go the publishing route via a relatively small list of publishers. Japan House and Dover make up a large chunk spines of my book collection.

The origami community, while passionate in its love of the hobby, is still a small niche in the world of publishing books. Further still, it is probably not a huge stretch to say that forums such as this one and others like it all over the NET as well as organizations like OUSA, BOS and JOAS reach a goodly portion of folders all over the world. The options are now much more extensive. For reasonable upfront fees, authors can self publish in small or large batches. Distribution through previously mentioned sources surely would provide great exposure to the target audience. Forum such as this one and ones like it worldwide would provide further exposure. I would hope that a brilliant folder like Dr. Lang could sell some self published materials at the universities he routinely speaks at (which as an aside what do I need to do to get you to come to the University of Kentucky) much like small bands that work the college circuit sell independently produced cd's. Search engines can be utilized to guide shoppers to other resources.

I ask, and not rhetorically, how important is the big publisher now?

Also, what about direct sales of individual diagrams to the buyer. Some interesting experiments have been done recently online (Radiohead offering their latest album on a donation basis comes to mind initially) that suggest that there is perhaps a market for consumers to give what they feel a product is worth. Whether this model is viable I really don't know, but it is interesting. As a previous poster asked, how much would one pay for specialized services? I for one would gladly pay $5-$15 for a truly excellent design and maybe more depending on the circumstance and designer. Perhaps that is unrealistic for some people. I know I'd be much less likely to randomly share a digram that I purchased in this way than one I just found somewhere online.

I know this is a crazy long post and I apologize if I have been too wordy. I just felt that the topic is a very important one and I would love to see some good beyond just moral victories for talented designers. Lastly, Quentin, if you just stop diagramming and sharing you'll disappoint more than a few people on here so keep the love coming! :)

aesthetistician · Post by **aesthetistician** » March 27th, 2008, 6:55 pm

On the one hand, we have designers who - quite reasonably - would prefer to receive credit and money for their work. On the other, we have publishing houses who don't want to reprint books which - let's face it - only have a small audience. And we have folders, who would like diagrams of their favourite models but don't want to pay over the odds for something that's out of print - and let's not forget that when you buy second-hand the author doesn't receive a royalty.

I can't speak for everyine, but I am wary of buying an expensive used book for the sake of one or two diagrams. I would, however, be happy to pay the author directly for a digital copy of the diagram I want. It would work like this:

I like a model of David Brill's (for example). He has decided what this diagram is worth. I PayPal him this amount, he emails me the pdf. Because a lot of the overheads are eliminated, he can keep the price much lower than that of a printed book and probably still make a larger profit. The motivation to pay for diagrams is greater, because I like the designer and feel he deserves my money. The motivation to file-share is smaller, because the diagram is more affordable. And the motivation to publish your diagrams is greater, because if nobody buys them, well, you haven't lost any money on printing books.

Of course, the publishing houses lose out here. And there might be some questions regarding copyright if a diagram has already been published. Still, I would be interested to know if this has been explored as a solution.

origamimasterjared · Post by **origamimasterjared** » March 27th, 2008, 7:31 pm

Well, at least one person I know of has tried the pay-per-piece approach. Check out Marc Kirschenbaum's updated website http://marckrsh.home.pipeline.com/index.html

He is selling pdfs of a bunch of his diagrams, both those that were available free on his website and those that were published in Origami USA Collections.

To go directly to the store: http://stores.lulu.com/marckrsh

I'm not sure how successful he has been, but there's someone, fairly well-known in the origami world, doing it.

halogen64 · Post by **halogen64** » March 28th, 2008, 12:32 am

From experience, in order to decrease the amount of origami piracy the following would need to occur:

More widespread distribution to physical stores: All my local stores just sell Lang, Montroll, and Kasahara.

Materials no longer published should be made available digitally or (*gasp*) republish certain diagrams in new collections: My favorite author is Hideo Komatsu, but until he decides to publish a book I have to collect various books and magazines (whose cost adds up rather quickly) until I have them all. Noted if he publishes a book I will buy it, but I am a little impatient and I am sure some people feel the same way about Takashi and Kamiya. Forcing people to do this for a single model is ridiculous. Many authors have already produced diagrams in magazines or convention books and could easily compile their own books. The only real difficulty is finding a publisher and many origami artists in the community would most likely be willing to help.

Cheaper: As a college student my funds are somewhat limited. Many people are in the same boat. Good books tend to be foreign and foreign means expensive. Everyone agrees that the price needs to go down. One thing many artists could do with their publishers is sell the books that get 'messed up' during production at a cheaper cost. Many books simply get folds (the irony) and marks and are perfectly readable (Nicolas Terry sold me a book this way).

Artists should take piracy as a compliment not an insult. It's detrimental in a monetary respect, but what most people are overlooking is that if that artists work becomes more widespread (even through piracy) then more people will become familiar with them and the probability that someone will purchase their books goes up, not down. The people who pirate would probably not have bought the book in the first place (or can't as many people have already described).

aesthetistician · Post by **aesthetistician** » March 28th, 2008, 12:11 pm

Origamimasterjraed - cool! Some of those diagrams look quite nifty and they're all affordable. It would be lovely if more artists followed suit, even if it was only a few of their models.

Halogen64 - I think you might be overlooking the fact that it isn't the artist who has the final say in whether a book gets published and is widely distributed. A publishing company has to bear the cost of printing a book and marketing it to bookshops. Printing high-quality illustrations is not cheap. Bookshops have to decide whether to buy a consignment of a book for which there might be little demand in their area, so it's reasonable that they would only want to stock reliable sellers.

It's a pity that what would benefit the folders and the artists isn't always the best business decision for everyone else involved...

lhs1701 · Post by **lhs1701** » March 29th, 2008, 4:42 am

I wondered if anyone here can take up publishing and providing e-books or e-diagrams legally. This way both the artist and the folder gains. Someone could start something or perhaps talk to companies like Amazon to see if they could help. Like it or not, I believe most would not go for illegal stuff if legal ones can be obtained at reasonable prices. Perhaps this is one way to drastically reduce piracy.

rdrutel · Post by **rdrutel** » March 29th, 2008, 4:51 am

(in the silence...a whisper....a stomach grumble)

All quiet on the opposition's front. Interesting posts these past several. I really like the realchris method of justifying downloading. Is this ok with Jeoss and company? I am a little disappointed after the strong denouncement. I was expecting exclamation points to flood in. Maybe it is the mod effect that stops people in their tracks...TheRealChris, would you object to me using ThaRealChris ?

(a dog barks in the distance)

eric_son · Post by **eric_son** » March 29th, 2008, 7:18 am

lhs1701 wrote:I wondered if anyone here can take up publishing and providing e-books or e-diagrams legally. This way both the artist and the folder gains.

Maybe the e-diagrams/e-books can be sold in a format that requires a proprietary reader (not acrobat) that includes some form of copy protection.

Though this will be eventually hacked, it should at least provide some copy-deterrence. Also, if the price of the e-diagrams or e-books are fair enough, I don't think hackers would even bother producing a keygen/crack for this.