Origami Piracy

General discussion about Origami, Papers, Diagramming, ...
Post Reply
Dave Brill
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: February 26th, 2005, 8:55 am
Contact:

Origami Piracy

Post by Dave Brill »

Dear origami enthusiasts,

These days it's very easy to get almost any origami item you need, with the help of a simple Google search.

But a lot of origami material that you can find - books and diagrams especially - is being offered illegally. Very recently, a Brazilian web site listing a huge range of publications for free download, all in breach of copyright and offered without permission, was shut down. This followed complaints to the web site's ISP, by a group of origami authors whose work was being illegally offered.

In this atmosphere, some authors and creators are already thinking hard about whether they will continue to produce diagrams or books containing their models. They fear that their work may be stolen and then illegally distributed, or offered for free download via file-sharing websites. Easier, they reason, not to offer diagrams or write books AT ALL in future.

If that was to happen, you can see that the origami world, and enthusiasts everywhere would all suffer .

So, please think very hard before obtaining material from a file-sharing web site.

The effect on origami authors and creators of illegal downloading is far-reaching. An origami book may take 2 or 3 years to write. You can imagine the reaction of an author on seeing his precious work stolen and offered for free, or traded, like a child's collection in a school playground.

Obviously, royalty payments to authors and publishers' income are directly affected.

But most importantly of all, it is against the law.

If you spot any infringements, we ask you to take some time to try and contact the author/copyright owner to give them full details, maybe via this list/forum. The origami world is still relatively small, and even if you cannot make direct contact, maybe another list member will be able to pass on your message. The copyright owner is the only person who can take action against those offering illegal downloads.

Thanks for your help, understanding and cooperation!

Yours

Dave Brill
http://www.brilliantorigami.com

Roman Diaz
http://dosisdiaria.blogspot.com/

Marc Kirschenbaum
http://origami.home,pipeline.com

Ronald Koh
http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedFores ... ronald.htm

Michael LaFosse,
Origamido, Inc.
http://www.origamido.com

Robert Lang,
http://www.langorigami.com/

Yuri and Katrin Shumakov
http://www.oriland.com
http://www.oribana.com

Nicolas Terry
http://design.origami.free.fr/home.htm
nonkelgans
Super Member
Posts: 162
Joined: January 18th, 2007, 8:26 pm
Location: Gent (Belgium)
Contact:

Post by nonkelgans »

I'm in no way in favor of piracy but what about books that are out of print and will never be reprinted?? Is it justified to put them online in order that everybody can enjoy it?? Since there are no new books sold there can be no financial harm to the author or the publisher. Or maybe the authors should have some system set up that you can buy the book in digital format?? I wouldn't mind to buy a digital book that I can print at home, this would be very handy for books that are out of print for years and almost impossible to get hold of.
User avatar
polomeque
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: July 21st, 2007, 2:46 pm
Location: Spain. Madrid

Post by polomeque »

Have you ever realised that users prefer original things (a book to carry, to touch, to write on...)? (me, at least) But... what about prices, access to origami stuff, buying on the net...? Not everybody has that kind of opportunities.
Do you make any special offer with your books (reduce prices, attach origami paper, access to private diagrams on your web...)? If you want people to buy your ORIGINAL books, you'll need aggressive strategies.
eaglehorn
Super Member
Posts: 135
Joined: December 28th, 2007, 11:27 pm

Post by eaglehorn »

-
Last edited by eaglehorn on October 9th, 2018, 8:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
TheRealChris
Moderator
Posts: 1874
Joined: May 17th, 2003, 1:01 pm
Location: Germany

Post by TheRealChris »

So if i consider these facts i can pretty understand the people who don't like to buy origami books.
well... there's still a difference between not buying a book and downloading it somewhere. [img]http://freenet-homepage.de/origamichris ... /wink3.gif[/img]
User avatar
ahudson
Forum Sensei
Posts: 561
Joined: May 10th, 2006, 2:14 am
Location: California
Contact:

Post by ahudson »

I wonder if OUSA would consider selling legal scans of out-of-print books online-- obviously there would be some royalty/copyright deals to make with the publishers and authors, but at least that way there would be a legal way to obtain these books. For that matter- I wonder what the publishers would say...

I certainly would rather pay 10$ for an electronic copy instead of 50$ for a used book-- out-of-print stuff can get quite expensive sometimes.
rdrutel
Super Member
Posts: 150
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 11:38 pm

Post by rdrutel »

So lets play the devil's advocate...

Dave, I understand your concern for your material to be illegally distributed. It just isn't fair to put in a lot of work and effort and have it taken away so easily.
That is the key word...easy. The Brazilian website, amongst others that were closed, was the low-hanging fruit. People are like water, finding the path of least resistance. Take South America or East Asia and look at the economic situations of people. Vietnamese on average earn 3K a year. It is painfully obvious that this activity will be the natural progression in the midst of convention books costing more than 1% of their income and then, like eaglehorn said, just for a few 1-2 models that they like. They cannot justify it. Could anyone justify a book costing 1% of their income? So they create nemesis forums of distribution. I can imagine these forums' activities will continue to operate on a lower level rather than directly on the forum since there is already a community of membership that will look at this as a step in the more difficult direction, but nothing that stops them.

Websites may spread origami farther than what would be the case if people could only pay. This would increase origami creativity and set the stage for a much greater variety in models (insects :roll: ) with many more creators. If your objective is to inspire people and get paid, the realm of art is a very inspirational economic pitfall.

Polomeque said above that there is a need for aggressive strategies...right. I don't see the faintest possibility that there is any strategy that will compete with Free.
Also, scans of books, ahudson's suggestion, would bypass the middleman, aka getting the file from your shelf/desk onto your computer and then be much quicker for someone to distribute it. So this will fail.
Any other ideas?
Hell, I don't have any brilliant solution.

So think, wish, do whatever, but if it involves selling a book, it will be all over the place like music. It will be unfortunate if it stops people from publishing, but if I ever produce any sort of diagrams, I will without a doubt have the full understanding that if they are popular, they could reach everyone's computer around the world.


ROD
qtrollip
Forum Sensei
Posts: 849
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 4:52 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by qtrollip »

OK, let me say, first off, that it was Dave Brill who posted this discussion. He is a professional artist, meaning art is his income. When it comes to origami, Dave Brill is as an important figure as anyone else in the business. What he has done for origami is comparable to many of the origami legends, even Yoshizawa. Also, Dave has given and done more for origami than probably anyone on this forum! So do take his post serious!
Secondly, I agree that origami is something that needs to be shared. But you cant expect everyone to be samaritans and just give everything away for free. Let's take Dave Brill as an example. Many of his (exceptional) designs are available on the net. He has not been selfish in any way. Stealing his work, on the other hand, is an act of selfishness.

Thirdly, comparing the price of an origami book to one's salary. Well, let me just say that the currency in South Africa is very poor/worthless, but I have bought many (about 80) origami books in my life, plus the shipping etc. Because it was worth it for me.
And, just to add, reading the response to Dave's post, has de-motivated me to even bother wasting time on diagramming any of my designs. Why waste time on diagramming if I could rather spend the time folding? Why spend valuable folding time on diagramming in a way to make it easier for others to recreate, when I know (as described in detail in this forum), that the diagrams WILL be stolen?
I hope that makes you think a bit more about Dave's post!
Quentin
nonkelgans
Super Member
Posts: 162
Joined: January 18th, 2007, 8:26 pm
Location: Gent (Belgium)
Contact:

Post by nonkelgans »

Well, one thing is certain, there will always be piracy. Just look at the efforts they did to stop music sharing, it hasn't worked a bit (excuse the pun). We will have to live with the knowledge that we can't stop piracy but that doesn't stop the honest folders to support the artists. I still buy Origami books, no matter how much free stuff there is on the net. I'm still convinced that the best stuff is in the books and not on the web.
Dave Brill
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: February 26th, 2005, 8:55 am
Contact:

Post by Dave Brill »

Thanks for all your comments.

Yes, this is an almost insoluble problem, but it makes authors and creators feel a little better if they can try to put their fingers in the leaking dam.

Brilliant Origami is out of print in its English edition, though there is a Brazilian edition (...curious that the web site which was closed down was also based in Brazil!)

I'm really hopeful that I can persuade Japan Publications to reprint one day soon, so it's in my interest to stop any pirate copies even though the book isn't officially available.

I'm not a full time origami artist, though income from origami activities does provide me with useful beer money... I'd be happy to but you a pint when I see you... so please keep you eyes open for any more download sites, and LET US KNOW about them... but by private message, please.

Thanks for your help and understanding!

Yours

Dave
dave.brill(at)btopenworld.com
http://www.brilliantorigami.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brill/
Visionary
Newbie
Posts: 47
Joined: January 31st, 2008, 9:40 pm

Post by Visionary »

First off: I'm new to the origami community and I don't have any deeper insight into the economic aspects of it. That said I'm in the computer industry and believe that there are a lot of commonalities to open-source software and how it did not stop people from making money of software. The money now just comes from different sources: service contracts, coaching, consultants, and special domain-specific software (not available as open-source due to its limited/highly specialized need)

I'm not sure how much of an origami artist's income really comes from diagrams published in books, but I believe that a lot of parallels can be drawn to the software world to give origami artists alternative sources of income.

Let us assume diagrams and CPs are published freely by some or all of the origami artists. How does an origami artist get money?

- first of all it requires a lot of skill (folding, knowledge about the best choice of paper, wet-folding, etc) to actually create a first-class quality model from a diagram. I have seen kawasaki roses for sale on the internet ranging up to $50 a piece. So let's not forget that an origami artist can produce hand-made quality products which can be sold.

- consulting and coaching: would you be interested to learn from Kamiya himself how to fold some of his models? would you be willing to pay him for that? I definitely would.

- specialized designs: with most of the known models published freely there's still place for designing and earning money from it. Make a special design for a company's logo or mascot. Design a special table decoration for the restaurant next door, ...

I believe there's still a lot of money to be made. It's just not going to be as easy as drawing up some diagrams and adding a book cover around them. I believe that similarly to the music and sofware industries we will never be able to stop people from sharing copies of scanned origami books, but there is always the option to accept it and adjust yourself accordingly.
User avatar
Ondrej.Cibulka
Buddha
Posts: 1055
Joined: January 9th, 2006, 4:18 pm
Location: Czech republic
Contact:

Post by Ondrej.Cibulka »

I think, this is great time to point out two important things. Note, that previous comments of Dave's text are too long and combination of my english language knowledge and fast-running time leads to that I did not read that comments. So maybe my two things was already disccussed.

First: I asked here on the forum for official contact to master Kasahara. It was question of authors law. No response. I can try to send letter by standard mail to some publisher of Kasahara's books, but you know, I can expect the same effect as here, on the forum. "Such strange country, the Czech republic, is it really exists?" So I am expecting no response. (Experiences from other areas of interests.) OK. but how I can contact such author as master Kasahara?

Second: Origami books are quite expensive. But it is not a big problem, we are big enthusiasts and we are very happy to have origami books in our bookcase. And we are really trying it! Sometimes I try to buy origami book via internet, but internet shop notes to me, that ("Such strange country, the Czech republic, is it really exists?") we do not deliver to your country. So, we are ready to spend big money for origami books, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to buy! The Czech republic is not middle Africa! The Czech republic is heart of the Europe, very rich country of culture, history, industry, people knowledge, most stable country of post-communistic countries etc. How someone can ignore this fact??!!
Ondrej Cibulka Origami, www.origamido.cz
User avatar
origami_8
Administrator
Posts: 4371
Joined: November 8th, 2004, 12:02 am
Location: Austria
Contact:

Post by origami_8 »

Oh, I know this problem. Many sellers also do not deliver to Austria, like the Czech Republic a country in the middle of Europe (and a neighbour country of the Czech Republic). But most of the time if you contact these sellers per email they are most helpful and make an exception for you and deliver the book non the less.

But I have a question. Why does anyone write an Origami book? It can't be for the money because how much do you get? Lets imagine a retail price of the book of 10€. How much does the Author really get in the end, a 15%? That would be 1.50€ per book, so if 100 books are sold that would be 150€. That isn't enough to pay the cheapest rent in my country. So you can't get rich with writing books. There has to be another reason to write a book.
I've drawn some diagrams myself and I know how much work it is. If I would ever write a book it would be just for my own satisfaction. I feel it as a high regard of my work if someone refolds one of my models, it shows me that he likes it.

I would really like to buy hard copies of some out of print books. To me folding from a real book is much more comfortable than folding from a digital copy. But how do you get access to such books? Where can I buy books that where out of print maybe even before I was born?

My Origami library is three bookshelves large but there are still so many books missing that I would like to get but can't find anywhere to buy.

Some of these books would be easily accessible over file sharing sites.
rdrutel
Super Member
Posts: 150
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 11:38 pm

Post by rdrutel »

Excellent response Anna...

Like you said, Dave pointed out art is not entirely his income, however he enjoys the money that comes probably along with the inspiration he has in the origami community.
It appears Quentin's lack of fortitude was bright and shining when he stated that a single post demotivated him from wasting his time drawing up diagrams. So it is a waste of time to spread art around the world or to spread inspiration around the world? I guess I won't make diagrams because I won't be able to get money for them.... Diagrams can only be stolen if you seek money for them Quentin, something Dave is not so interested in. You must be greedy if you have no intention of passing on your models in any other method than one that creates income.

Being able to buy 80 books even in South Africa is a terrible example. But I guess you are a money-oriented individual sitting on an ample amount. The ability to buy so many books comes from the ability to feed yourself and others first and thus having an income sufficient enough to supply both. So did you move to Canada for the higher valued currency Quentin?

Also, you agree with sharing, but you really want to be paid otherwise you cross your arms, noticibly pouting, and quit right? Do you stomp your foot too when a post upsets you? It seems you have little care for being a good samaritan yourself, a parable you used. So why don't you familiarize yourself with the Bible a bit more by reading past the 8th commandment to where it mentions being generous and feeding thousands with 5 loaves and fish. This is a story of sharing. Here is the search function for you http://www.google.com to look it up and try to understand it.
Be a hermit Quentin and keep everything to yourself. With this type of attitude you are far from the origami legends you posted about.

ROD
User avatar
origamimasterjared
Buddha
Posts: 1670
Joined: August 13th, 2004, 6:25 pm
Contact:

Post by origamimasterjared »

Dave Brill wrote:so please keep you eyes open for any more download sites, and LET US KNOW about them... but by private message, please.
I can't be the only one who was amazed when someone posted the name of that Brazilian site on the O-List. Haha.

And Quentin, yours are some of the best diagrams I've seen. Please don't stop diagramming. Continue on your book, keep on making diagrams, even if you only give them to me. :)

Anyhow, I have a few points I'd like to bring up.
  • The internet piracy of books is very low compared to music and movies. Except in one crucial case, origami. Most of the time, you need to read books. Either that or they're for show. A coffeetable art book isn't gonna do any good on your harddrive. Also it is pretty bad reading lots of text on the computer, and if it's poorly scanned, it's next to impossible. But with origami, reading text isn't of prime importance. The pictures are more important. And even then, once you understand origami diagrams, and have been exposed to both poor diagrams and diagrams in a language you don't speak, you can follow almost any.

    Yes, I know origami books can be expensive. But what about sharing? If four people pitch in toward a $40 book, the price comes down to $10 apiece, $8 for five people, and so forth. Granted this doesn't solve all problems, but if a few people who hang out together all go in for a book, and just share it between themselves, that'll save you some money, and also give you some camaraderie.

    Next is the issue of convenience/preference. Many people prefer folding from a physical book. Some don't. I don't. Keeping a book open is a hassle for me. My folding surface usually consists of my largest textbook on my lap. I don't have a desk and a cookbook holder. Also, I'm in college (university), away from home. I live in an apartment, where I'm sharing a room with two other guys. I simply do not have the space to keep all my books out. And I still live with my parents, so I travel back and forth. It is much more convenient to have all my books in my computer that takes up about the same amount of space as my copy of Brilliant Origami.
There is one book I'd really like to get for free, and that is Issei Yoshino's Super Complex Origami. Reason: I bought it, and it was 'stolen' (loaned to a friend, who I lost contact with) before I even went through the book once. Real pity.

This is a quote from a private discussion I had with a friend on the topic.
  • I'm not sure if there's anything we can really do about all the pirated diagrams online. For one thing, in certain countries it's legal. Brazil is one of the biggest offenders, and it may or may not be legal there. I'm pretty sure it's legal in China, Vietnam, etc. I actually did see one filehosting site take actions. They blocked searching for "origami".

    Pirating in the origami community is extremely destructive. Sure, it gets some people to notice, "Hey that's really nice! I should buy his book." But it also allows many more people to reap from the books, while the author loses all that extra money. (I would estimate that illicit copies of certain books outnumber legit ones by at least 5:1, but that could easily be over 100:1. This is MUCH MUCH worse than the case of pirated music.)
When can I get a copy of Brillianter Origami? :wink:
Post Reply