Origami Piracy

General discussion about Origami, Papers, Diagramming, ...
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Kafar
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Kafar »

What if the origamist uses the base (simple cp) for whole new model theme, or shape the model in different way, that the outcome isn't similari any way to the original version?
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Foldtastic
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Foldtastic »

Let me give an example. Nguyen Hung Cuong and Nguyen Ngoc Vu have great white sharks that look almost identical.
I think it is very possible that one of them saw the other person's work before making their own (but have no proof either way).
However, the models have different crease patterns and I believe they are both works of art in their own right.

Here's another example: I was working on a house in a tornado. While I was in process, someone else posts a model that looks similar to what I was in the process of creating. Trying to be a good origami citizen, I congratulate that individual and mention that they beat me to it. To that individual's credit, they replied that I should keep working on my version. (I stop working on mine because I am less interested since it has already been done, but if I wanted to continue, shouldn't I have had the right to?).

My point is simply that origami is the type of field where artists both a) get inspired by others' work and b) accidentally discover models with similar folded forms. I don't think that rules should stop that. The crease pattern or diagram is what should be protected in my viewpoint.

All of that said, I still abide by rule #12 because I don't like causing any controversy. However, I don't think rule #12 should exist because, a) it is hard to determine when someone copied vs independently folded a model with a similar final form, b) I don't believe the shape of the folded form is what should be protected as long as the crease pattern was substantially different, c) I think that disallowing fan created "inspired works" stifles the collaborative, creative origami community,
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by HankSimon »

I went back to re-read all 9 pages. I take back my comments, not the intent, but the extreme added layers of complication that I added, to what I believe are fairly simple matters.

For these two examples, above:
1. The Rules are simplifications of Copyright Laws. They are Not Legal advice. They state that up front.
2. The Diagrams and the Model are two separate copyrighted entities. This is the KEY issue.
3. You may publish your independently created diagrams - as stated in The Rules.
4. However, the Model which you reverse-engineered is NOT yours, It is still Copyrighted.
5. But, If you create a new model, substantially different, it is yours.
6. My non-legal opinion is that the two sharks are independent. The Designers are the owners of the copyright to their own shark, and they are the ones who may judge independence - not the public .... for the purposes of Copyright. If there is disagreement, then it could escalate so that lawyers may get involved ... and the disagreement settled based on "who has the better lawyer."
7. You do have the right to your House in a Tornado. And you own the Copyright for your Diagrams and for Your Model, if you are not overly influenced by an existing model.... And, from a legal (and respectful, ethical) perspective, that is primarily between you and other Designers.
8. The 'shape' of the model is a matter of degree. If you make a horse, and someone uses it to make a unicorn, that's probably an infraction. But, if someone independently designs a horse, like many other Designers, they are probably OK.
9. On the other hand, there is an Origami Gift Box designed by Tomoko Fuse, which is simple and elegant. Another Designer 'reinvented' it. When he discovered the duplication, I believe that he immediately contacted Fuse, and I think they came to an amicable agreement of 'simultaneous' development, based on the discussion and the respect, reputation & experience of the second developer.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Brimstone »

HankSimon wrote:9. On the other hand, there is an Origami Gift Box designed by Tomoko Fuse, which is simple and elegant. Another Designer 'reinvented' it. When he discovered the duplication, I believe that he immediately contacted Fuse, and I think they came to an amicable agreement of 'simultaneous' development, based on the discussion and the respect, reputation & experience of the second developer.
Just for the sake of an interesting discussion, what if they hadn't come to an agreement? Wouldn't the second creator be entitled to copyright on the model he independently discovered?
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Froy »

Seems that all this discuss can be capitalized in to just one word:

Honesty

-If your job gets influenced by some one, give credit. (This may apply to reverse engineered models, but keep in mind that the original idea is not yours)

-If you want to do something with someone else work, ask for permit.

-For co-discovered works, a simple research is not that hard to do with the technology we have these days. If you think some one did a model at the same time as you did, you should simple mention it. And try to get in contact to discuss the similarities.

Here is an example in my experience:

My burr puzzle looks exactly like Jason Ku's burr puzzle but they are very different in the folding method and symmetry. And before making public my diagrams I had to make sure they were substantially different.

Look here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/46081975@ ... ed-public/
Pobody's nerfect.

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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Foldtastic »

Froy wrote: My burr puzzle looks exactly like Jason Ku's burr puzzle but they are very different in the folding method and symmetry. And before making public my diagrams I had to make sure they were substantially different.

Look here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/46081975@ ... ed-public/
This is a great example.
Here's Jason Ku's http://scripts.mit.edu/~jasonku/index.p ... urrpuzzle1

The two burr puzzles look identical, but you developed your own model. The rules posted by OUSA would allow you to publish your diagrams/CP but Rule #12 would prohibit you from displaying your folded model at convention or on Flickr.

In fact, the comments on your Flickr page show that Robert J. Lang, Andrei Ermakov, and several unknown artists have designed similar looking burr puzzles.

FYI, it's was nice of you to research and mention the other artists, and I do think that it is polite that you did so.

However, Rule 12 states that every artist that created one of these burr puzzles would have had to get permission from whoever was first before they publish a photo or their work. Maybe this did indeed happen, but I don't think it should have been necessary.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Brimstone »

Froy

Everything you said makes perfect sense, except for the part that re-started this discussion "displaying a model you reverse engineered". I don't think there is anything dishonest about doing so, yet rule #12 forbids that, even if you give credit.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by origamipete »

I was a lurker on this topic before, reading through the responses, but there is still one thing i don't understand.

Just because someone is not first to design something (let's take the puzzle as an example) it does not necessarily mean it was reverse-engineered from the pre-existing model. If it has a different structure, it's obvious it has been arrived at independently. I think if this could be demonstrated, it would be unfair to prohibit that model from being shown publicly. This case should NOT be taken as a tresspassing of rule 12.

How many origami animals are there? There is great duplicity, or, rather multiplicity, in terms of what subjects are commonly being represented. Just look at rhinoceroses, giraffes, elephants, frogs, octopuses, tigers and so on are out there.

Even according to the great origami masters, being second to a subject is a-okay. Just look at Kamiya and his tiger. Came after Komatsu's? No problem. If rule 12 were followed ad absurdum as suggested, there could only exist one of each and and the first person to design a tiger would be the only one who'd have the right to the only origami tiger which is allowed to exist. "Oh! Look at this guy who painted a red lilly! Nobody else is allowed to display a picture of a red lilly!" Is this the game you suggest OUSA wants to play? I think not.

Therefore I don't think rule 12 would prohibit that puzzle from being displayed publicly, it would only be so if the structure of the model was identical to the original.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Brimstone »

OrigamiPete, I would never interpret rule #12 the way you did, neither I think many people would do.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by HankSimon »

To get a better perspective, go back to the first few pages, and read ONLY what Dave Brill posted. He provides an experienced and measured discussion.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Foldtastic »

HankSimon wrote:To get a better perspective, go back to the first few pages, and read ONLY what Dave Brill posted. He provides an experienced and measured discussion.

Dave Brill's posts were about diagram and cp piracy. They weren't about this rule #12 issue.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by HankSimon »

https://origamiusa.org/copyright provides more details, as well as a Contact Link under Infringements, to provide a definitive answer to any question.

Lang's site has related info: http://www.langorigami.com/copyright/copyright.php
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by bethnor »

again, hank, that doesn't answer the problem as stated. if some kid reverse-engineers a model and proudly displays their achievement on flickr, i'm not going to leave a nasty comment in the comment section, and i doubt that other people in the community will either.
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by origamipete »

Brimstone wrote:OrigamiPete, I would never interpret rule #12 the way you did, neither I think many people would do.
Yeah I realize that now, I've misread one of the previous comments, sorry. :oops:
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Re: Origami Piracy

Post by Baltorigamist »

Just out of curiosity (after reading or skimming through the whole topic thus far), where does inspiration fall into as far as copyright goes?
Let's say someone designs a model of Subject A, and I really like the model. So I design a model of A independently, and my model happens to have the same amount of detail.
But then let's say the other designer and I independently publish the CPs for our models, and they turn out to have a very similar--if not identical--structure. Would I be able to display my model (and/or the CP) at a convention?

I think the same question applies to a lot of designers, either beginning or experienced, because let's face it-- haven't you seen a model and wanted to fold it but couldn't find instructions? The obvious answer, as long as you have the skills, is to design your own.
(This is all assuming that the CP and/or diagrams HAVE NOT been published, so therefore they can't be pirated.)
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