Should Eric Joisel's Works Be Diagrammed?

[akugami]

i have seen both yours, gachepapier and grizzlyman's, designs and works, and i have bad news for you. your designs are also works of art with a unique perspective. your posts seem to imply then, that eric's work is somehow sacred and should not be diagrammed, while the "trash" that you (and other designers, like kamiya, komatsu, lang, montroll, etc., etc.) have created is not so sacred and therefore can be.

at first, bethnor, i'd like to thank you for defining my tries in designing as art.
i wouldn't have published any pictures of them, if i weren't satisfied with their outcome. but, if i see something special in the work of master joisel there's really no reason to impute a devaluation of other origami masters or students, too.
on the contrary - i lift my hat for everyone who takes time and troubles to create something new and may be unique. i'm impressed by work and style of master dinh as well as i like the designs of donya or mikiller - please excuse me not listing the names of the countless creatives beside ...
somebody has once said "a new model becomes origami just when it's folded by other people than the author". for my own little pieces i feel something similar. the geisha for instance got a new glance to me when "she" was folded by a handful members of the last middle-german-origami-day ... it makes me happy seing others folding my design with fun and success.
this topic is about the work of a dead man - unfortunately.
so, if master joisel didn't diagram most of his models himself he probably had a reason for that. how many steps would a character from the "lord of the rings"-series have if one should draw an instruction for it?! a joiner or a woodcarver usually works just on a project without sketching any instruction for it, except some personal hints on material or process.
i suppose there's a connection between your definition of origami (profession versus diversion) and the productivity regarding to diagrams.
eric joisel made his livelihood from origami as an art and i don't think it really profitable to sell a book full of neverending instructions. neither a picasso nor a rodin got his money to live with from selling instructions on how to paint or sculpture but from creating art and getting paid for that.
as a summary let me hold on to the fact that i'd appreciate everything drawn or written by monsieur joisel himself or at least with his permission.

[BrooksHalten]

I don't want his models "reverse engineered". I only want what he had intended to share, and since his book by origami house was to contain cp's I feel that those were his choice to publish.

But to play devil's advocate...

Let's face it, paper doesn't last forever. It wears, tears, rips, fades, crumples, and decays over time. Eric's entire masterpieces were in this fragile medium. There will come a day when his original models will just "pass away." Now, I'm not saying, "let's break into his house and snatch up all his papers", but if there were to do so, I would say to let some time pass. Ten years would be an appropriate time I think. Knowing how to make models on the same base would ensure that his masterpieces would be seen for generations.

I don't want any models to be taken apart or unfolded, that would be a crime against art, at any time.

In the end, I say: If he had drawings or cps of the model, sure. But only after time passes. Leave everything else alone.

[gordigami]

One can hardly applaud " breaking in & snatching his papers " , at any time .
They're not there anymore, anyhow, & are well protected .

Personally, I tend to favor widespread folding of Joisel's models .
I believe that would be a lasting, ongoing testament to his ingenuity .
I doubt that many of us can adequately reproduce all his models, but the memorial lies in the respectful attempt .

Obviously, no one should dare claim knowledge of Eric's " intentions" .
My belief , and only an opinion, is that he would like us to integrate some measure of originality & creativity with his models, as well as other models .

[BrooksHalten]

oh, I wasn't in favor of grabbing his papers. Sorry if it was poorly worded.

But yes, I agree 100% with you.

[ahudson]

It seems like y'all are missing the most important reason not to draw diagrams. Joisel was *not* a terribly accomplished designer; he was an excellent sculptor. Boxpleating is quite simple, it's how you finish it that counts.

However, sculpting techniques are not conveyed well in diagramming, and are very difficult to teach in any form. That's the most sound reason not to reverse-engineer his work, IMHO; you wouldn't learn much from the diagrams, and the model would look ugly unless you were a master at shaping.

There is nothing wrong with reverse-engineering someone's work. It doesn't matter if they're dead or alive, it's perfectly legal and completely ethical to do so, as long as you aren't trying to sell it or distribute the diagrams.

[rdrutel]

I really like Joisel's models and how he finished them off with amazing sculpting. Having a cp or diagram of one of his humans would not help me learn how to sculpt at all, but it would get me to the point where I could try to learn based off of pictures of his interpretations. That is essentially what he meant by his dwarf. He gave us the main idea and told us to work from there. I, like many others I'm sure, took a look at what he had done with his works and molded till I was happy with the result. This is exactly what I would have enjoyed with other models of his.

[garrasdecaiman]

I believe that since joisel's models are usually very simple boxpleating the final modelling is what is important, so I would rather have very detailed photos of his works showing the way he managed the pleats and the closures so instead of the full diagrams that some people have advocated some crease patterns and some good pictures would be better.

for example in his harlequin model, the blooming arms are transformed to slender forearms, I wonder if a zoom in to the transition would reveal 45° bends or is every flap treated slightly different, I also would like to observe the transition between the body and the shield of the barbarian and a closeup of the wizard's robes to check if the squares are really pierced by a needle for decoration.

!Actually most of what I was thinking about is already in his page!
that is exactly what I was thinking, the actual finished model is not very important compared to the insights on his techniques and style
X

[Jonnycakes]

To add to what Andrew said:
Even if you wanted to reverse-engineer Joisel's work (here I am assuming that you guys are talking about the barbarians, musicians, other complex stuff), could you? Even if it is "simple" box-pleating, the sculptural, improvisatory approach that Joisel took to folding would make it very difficult to engineer exactly how he folded his work. In the end, I don't think it would be worth it-you would probably be better off just designing one of your own.

[rdrutel]

To you it might be a waste of time, but to me and probably most everyone else, not addressing the improvisation and details would not matter all that much. I would do the best I could till I was happy with the result. His dwarf works in exactly that way. Reverse engineering it to the step before sculpting and improvisation began would be perfectly fine with me.

[Jonnycakes]

I don't mean to imply that it would be a waste of time-I apologize that I wasn't clear. I mean to say that the effort (while certainly not fruitless) would in all likelihood not produce an accurate structural replica of Joisel's design. Reverse-engineering something that is so complex and thoroughly sculpted is tough. It would be very difficult to faithfully replicate the original underlying structure.

And again going back to what Andrew said:
If you could reverse-engineer the work to the point just before the sculpting began, why would you want to (and especially, why would you want to diagram it for someone else)? The whole point of Joisel's work is the sculpture, not the underlying design. It probably wouldn't be terribly hard to come up with a design that is at least just as good as Joisel's that can accomplish roughly the same thing.

TLDR: If you want to study sculpting/details, check out Joisel. If you want to study underlying structure, check out Chan/Kamiya/etc.

[DiscoDucky]

Eric Joisel is one of the greatest geniuses that has ever blessed the world of origami, if not, the greatest of them all. I have seen his models and they are transcendental, unrivalled even by the likes of paper folding greats such as Satoshi Kamiya, Joseph Wu and Robert J Lang. To have his work diagrammed/crease patterned would be on the same level as having the Mona Lisa come with an instruction manual. Please respect his one-of-a-kind work as it deserves to be shrouded in mystery. I was rather saddened by his recent passing, more so by the fact that he will never see through the success of his recently published book. I guess it's true that all great, magnificent artists have to be dead before attaining their well-deserved recognition.

Eric Joisel is up there with Pablo Picasso, Andy Warhol and all those other art legends/pioneers.

May he rest in peace.


So what if you could fold his models? That is just one facet to paper folding. You would still never, ever match his proficiency in sculpting and finalising his designs. No one will ever come close. Whoever believes so is a joke.

[Adam]

So what if you could fold his models? That is just one facet to paper folding. You would still never, ever match his proficiency in sculpting and finalising his designs. No one will ever come close. Whoever believes so is a joke.

So I guess everyone should just jump off a bridge as soon as possible, because we'll probably never be the best at what we do. I'm sure Joisel was already a master at origami when he folded his first model, right?

[akugami]

So I guess everyone should just jump off a bridge as soon as possible, because we'll probably never be the best at what we do ...

i don't think discoducky has meant his post to become an offence. a lot of people - me included - have been or still are shocked and saddened by the early death of master joisel and may be some of them tend to mystify his person and work. of course monsieur joisel wasn't born as the master he became but he died as one of the most skilled.
please don't defile his remembrance with such phrazes as quoted above!

[rdrutel]

Grizzly man...don't come to the defence of ignorance.

[anonymous person]

Grizzly man...don't come to the defence of ignorance.

Agreed.