MC - Methyl Cellulose

[Adam]

I just found something called "Cellulose based Glue Powder" ( "Cellulose kleister" in German ). I'm guessing it's the same, or at least similar, as Methyl Cellulose, right?

The only tissue-like paper I can find around here is crepe paper, but according to Angrydemon this cannot really be MC treated. Therefore, I am looking for some huge sheets ( or rolls ) of tissue paper. However, the largest size I can find is 500x750 mm and I would like to make sheets that are at least 900x900 mm. Any advice on where to get such sheets? Or should I get these 'small' ones and try to attach them to each other?

I searched for some topics about this subject, but they didn't really help I'm afraid. All of the websites that people suggested didn't sell such large pieces of paper. http://www.Handmade-paper.us has the largest sheets I've seen so far, but they're still not large enough and I don't like the way the paper looks: I'd rather have one solid colour than all kinds of speckles.

I am very eager to try this technique, since most of you seem to worship MC.

[origami_8]

I would try to overlap it like this:

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____   ____   ____
__  ____  ____  __

So that for example if you want to have a sheet that is three sheets long you would make the lower layer half a sheet two whole sheets half a sheet and the upper layer three whole sheets next to each other. That way the paper thickness shouldn't be more than two layers in one place. Hope that makes sense.

The glue sounds right, I would try it.

[Max]

I used to glue 2 sheets of 50cm "Seidenpapier" by "Canson" together. For Langs Moose i used Silk paper i bought in an origami store and glued parts of the paper together. It should be no problem to put four of these sheets together (2 vertical, 2 horizontal).

Thin paper in larger dimensions is hard to find...

Hope that helps.
max

[Adam]

Many thanks for the advice, Anna and Max! I was thinking how I could make a sheet composed of smaller parts, but I couldn't think of a way that wouldn't make the sheet thicker than 2 tissue layers. I'm going to order some tissue paper as soon as possible to try it out.
Thanks again!

[Pike]

two question:

Where do you guys get the tissue paper in roll form? I can only find the ones folded up, and they make alot of creases when I apply MC, which leads to the next question..

Any tips on not getting creases/wrinkles when applying MC to tissue paper, can't seem to get rid of them with larger sizes of tissue paper.

[Visionary]

Today I tried to create backcoated tissue with MC for the first time and already now, before it even dried, I can give a good summary:

I have failed... miserably failed.



The first thing I noticed is that the tissue paper I've been using for tissue foil all the time isn't any good for MC because the die is unstable. I did get the occasional colored fingers when folding the tissue foil, but when you apply MC to it it's like the color gets sucked right out of the tissue. Nevertheless, I went through with the process leaving my prepared MC solution (which I planned on using for lots and lots of sheets) with some funny coloring.

The second thing I noticed is that I don't get the air bubbles out properly. I can get the bigger bubbles out without any problems, but there remain literally hundreds of tiny air bubbles (with ~1-6mm diameters). Is this normal? Is it due to bad quality tissue? I am still waiting for the stuff to dry and see if it is usable in the end. I did have similar issues with spray glue and tissue foil where it often isn't much of a problem when you have even larger air bubbles contained.

The third thing I noticed is that it is extremly difficult to brush the air bubbles out without ripping the tissue paper. Whenever too much pressure is applied the paper rips, whenever I perform several medium pressure strokes originating from the same position the paper rips, whenever I am not very very careful at the border edges of the paper where the paper basically expands with every brush stroke the paper rips. Again is this typical for bad quality tissue or is it just a matter of experience?

Now after all those problems appeared already on the first layer of tissue I continued with backcoating and adding the second sheet. How on earth can you do that? With tissue foil I used to simply roll the sheet on a large enough paper roll and then unrolled it onto the foil sheet. But with MC as soon as the second sheet touches the first one anywhere it sucks up the MC and bonds to it. The best I could do is align one edge of the second sheet with the first and then letting it slowly fall onto the first one. However, this still means there are huge air bubbles contained underneath which I could not brush out without creating lots of wrinkles/creases. Somewhere in this thread I read that you should lift the second sheet a little bit to let the air out, so I tried that with the obvious result: the paper ripped.. again.


Sorry for this long post, but I got a bit frustrated that my first MC trial run went so horribly wrong (I wonder if I did anything right at all)

[origami_8]

It is easier to lay both sheets of tissue over each other (while still dry) and then apply the MC.
I also heard but never tried that you can moisten the paper a bit before applying the MC so that it expands evenly and doesn't create so many air bubbles.
That the paper bleeds is absolutely normal. You can buy non bleeding tissue paper as well, but it tends to crinkle a little bit more and is a bit harder to handle than the bleeding one.
To avoid as many bubbles as possible always begin your brush strokes in the middle of the paper and make one long brush to the edge at the time (begin on the top middle and work your way down with always one stroke left, one stroke right). Use enough MC, the paper should be all wet. When making strokes to the right hold your brush so that the bristles "look" to the left and vice versa (don't force them against the paper).
What you did doesn't sound all too wrong to me. Backcoating paper with MC just needs time and patience. Let your paper dry completely and try to fold it, maybe the bubbles are less worse than you think.

[origamimasterjared]

The short answer: Don't worry about it.

The paper will bleed. The paper should reabsorb enough of the dye to keep its color.

Don't worry about air bubbles. Just paint some more MC over the top sheet. Most of the air bubbles will just disappear. Wrinkles are also not a problem.

Also, use a large soft wide paint brush and begin from the center, and go toward the outside.

And the way I do it is lay the first sheet down. Then MC. Then lay a second. Then MC again.

I've still never made duo color double tissue paper. For duo I always have to just back-coat (Note: double tissue is really just back-coating two sheets of tissue paper) higher quality/price paper, mulberry, etc.


Good luck!

[Visionary]

Thanks for the reassurance. Indeed this morning the air bubbles were nowhere to be seen. The tissue surface does feel totally different, but the wrinkles are still in there and became very strong.

However, now I have found myself in yet another newbie MC problem: how do you get the finished paper off the glass? My paper is so thoroughly glued to the glass that I cannot even lift as much as a corner of it. Do you slightly dampen the paper afterwards to get it off? I'm afraid that if the paper gets too wet it'll rip again. Maybe the paper still has to dry some more? (although I let it dry for almost 12 hours before trying to get it off)

[JeossMayhem]

I've never tried MCing yet (hopefully soon!) but from what I've read, a little wooden slit (1-2 cm wide?) is placed between the paper and glass on one side just to make it easier to remove at that small point. I may be totally wrong but it sounds like it'd work to me, haha.

[origamimasterjared]

If you have either of Michael LaFosse's books Advanced Origami or the new one, Origami Art, he recommends putting a little strip of paper between the glass and the sheet to make removal later via a knife easier.

As for me, I just slide the knife under the sheet. Once you get a corner/edge up it peels off nicely.

[Visionary]

Thanks to a knife I managed to cut it off the glass now. I needed to cut all around the border though.

And I'm quite surprised as to what came out of this in the end.. the bottom side which was directly on the glass is now like foil. It feels like plastic and is all shiny.. is this normal? or might it be that my MC solution has a bad MC:water ratio? I used 3 teaspoons MC on 500ml as was suggested in this thread and it appeared a bit too liquid to me.. so would a shiny plastic/foil surface be the result of not enough MC in the solution?

[angrydemon]

The only tissue-like paper I can find around here is crepe paper, but according to Angrydemon this cannot really be MC treated. Therefore, I am looking for some huge sheets ( or rolls ) of tissue paper. However, the largest size I can find is 500x750 mm and I would like to make sheets that are at least 900x900 mm. Any advice on where to get such sheets? Or should I get these 'small' ones and try to attach them to each other?

I think it might be because the glue I'm using is too thick. If I added more water it might soak through, but I'd rather not do it, since the paper tears so easily when it's wet. Since it doesn't soak through, it means the other layers are not properly sized. I didn't know this before so I thought the paper was ****. I discovered that once the paper is fully sized it becomes stiff and holds creases extremely well, while still being quite thin.

I found this out when I was wet folding some of my Chinese Dragon with some glue. Before that the body wouldn't even close up. It lied flat on the ground with it's ribcage split open. I was finally able to shape the legs also. Later I tried it on my Kamiya Wizard and it actually stood up for the first time. Before that it would just lie flat on the ground like a panda just sat on it. I did it on my Ancient Dragon and I FINALLY got the neck to stay upwards. Before that the head would always touch the ground like an ostrich. It was an embarrassment to origami. I was almost ready to give up on tissue paper. I'll try refolding the Ancient Dragon after properly treating the paper and hopefully it will look less like a stroke victim.

[Visionary]

Now that I made my second sheet of MC tissue I encountered yet another problem. Although you all said that bleeding is normal I wonder how you can make a back-coated tissue paper with two different color sides?

I tried to create a brown/green-duo-paper this time and placed both sheets atop each other while they were still dry, then covered them in MC. Placing the dry sheets on top of each other is already way better than trying to fumble the second one onto a wet sheet and I'm getting better at brushing the air out as well. However, in the end the green sheet totally sucked up the bleeding brown color, so that the whole paper was brown in the end.

Is there any way to create proper duo color MC tissue with bleeding tissue or do I have to look out for tissue paper which doesn't bleed?

[origami_8]

You have to find tissue paper that doesn't bleed. There is no chance to get it working with bleeding tissue paper (and believe me, we have tried a lot).