MC - Methyl Cellulose

General discussion area for learning about paper, and the different types available.
Baltorigamist
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by Baltorigamist »

It's drying inside--in my living room.

I'm just tired of wasting money on good paper that doesn't work.
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origami_8
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by origami_8 »

Maybe the Acrylic is the problem. Try to get your hands on a sheet of glass like a big mirror or a picture frame. I've even read that some people are treating their paper directly on the window. I wonder how good it sticks there when you have to work vertically. Alternative, glue down the corners with some tape.
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bobzomgville
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by bobzomgville »

I've used the sliding glass door in my house to mc papers. Its vertical and it works fine. The real trouble is getting the papers to align when they're constantly being pulled down by gravity. Last week my younger cousin was visiting so I was able to use him for cheap child labor :mrgreen: . If you can get someone to hold the corners of the paper to the surface while you apply your glue to the top of the paper, you should be fine for the rest of it, and your servant loses their job until the next time you make paper. You only need to put glue on a little strip of top. Afterwards i peel off the top of the paper a tiny bit so that when i eventually peel the entire paper off, I have a release so that I don't rip the paper when i peel diagonally.
Also, sometimes the materials you use can be the problem. I've tried all kinds of surfaces. I once tried a plastic tablecloth thing in my house that nobody used. After a while I ended up with glue residue that prevented me from preparing paper on it because without glue or water, just laying the paper on the table caused it to get stuck. It was pretty hilarious. :D
bethnor
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by bethnor »

the only other thing i can think of is, you're not adding enough.

try just doing double tissue first. since it's cheap anyway, you won't feel so bad if you ruin the sheet. you should be adding enough me so that it soaks through to the acrylic below. technically, i don't think you can "ruin" expensive papers by adding sizing anyway. the sheet would still be foldable on its own.
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by mummykicks »

Baltorigamist wrote:So I've only treated a couple sheets so far, but they've both peeled away from the acrylic as they dried. I've been putting enough MC on the acrylic and paper (once between each layer and once on top), but I thought the paper was supposed to stick to the acrylic. Instead, it seems the mulberry is expanding more than the unryu--to the tune of about a centimeter. Am I doing something wrong?
I had this issue with large sheets of abaca that I made (34"). The abaca expands when wet like what you describe and then it will pull away from whatever you are trying to stick it to and get very wrinkled in the process. I didn't have it happen as much with the 19" sheets I made, but it still is an issue.

As I recall it was drying faster on the edges than in the middle. How thick is the acrylic? The reason I ask is that I found that if I put something under the acrylic sheet in the middle to bow it (maybe an inch or two) it helped. The liquid would drain from the middle to the edges and it would dry in the middle first and then out to the edges and be able to pull toward the middle as it dried and shrunk. I've got a pic of it on my flickr I think.

In your case however you might have two incompatible papers for the size sheet you are trying to make and the different shrink rates are what is killing you.

The only way is to clamp the paper between two surfaces as it dries so it can't wrinkle. They use presses when they make the paper for this purpose, and you need paper making felts to do it. Acrylic - paper - felt - acrylic and then put a bunch of weight on top of it. You need the felt to wick away the moisture or it will never dry.

I finally had to make a vacuum press to get the big sheets flat. I didn't have this issue with tracing paper or tissue+tracing paper at 34" squares.

The high strength fibers just shrink too much. You could try mulberry+tissue instead and see if that works if I understand what it is you are trying to accomplish.
Baltorigamist
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by Baltorigamist »

The acrylic I used is pretty thin, maybe 1/8". It actually occurred to me to use a second sheet on top of the paper to weigh it down, but I only have the one.
Due to my family's clutter in my house (lol) there wasn't a flat spot to treat the paper, so the acrylic was bowing downward at the edges probably an inch.

I think the two kinds of paper are incompatible, as you said. So I'll probably have to buy a second sheet of acrylic and borrow some clamps. I have some hanji coming in from Origami-Shop, so I'll probably try something similar with that first before I make the sheet I've been wanting to.

Who knew MCing was this complicated? xD
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TootyFruty
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by TootyFruty »

guys i tried to put some mc on unryu sheet but before i did i kinda felt the unryu if it fits to fold as it is. and found out it is. am i missing something? is it supposed to be like that? and the mc just make it more crispier? maybe i am wrong and its not unryu? would love to hear what u guys have to say.
zachb
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by zachb »

Hey guys,
I'm trying to make my first batch of CMC. I put 1 tablespoon of powder in a jar, then poured in .5L of water and started shaking. However, there are still clumps of powder suspended in the mixture. Is that normal, or should I make another batch? Thanks
al-black
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by al-black »

Its more or less normal. You can try shaking it again and/or pressing the lumps out against the side of the jar with a spoon.
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dinogami
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by dinogami »

Agreed that it's normal. They'll slowly dissolve over a few days. Adding a bit more water may help, too.
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Metangas
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by Metangas »

So I finally found myself an acrylics picture frame large enough to attempt making some duo tissue paper with MC, but so far I've had some problems:

1. My paper seems to warp and buckle as it dries. This has happened all my six tries, even when I tried elevating the middle a bit to make it dry faster than the edges.
2. 3/6 times, the sheets haven't adhered properly to each other and just end up kinda/sort of sticking together in patches.

Mind you, I'm not sure on the consistency "of egg white", so it might very well be my solution that is problematic. Also, my papers always, always wrinkle a lot when I apply the MC, although more often than not I can brush out excess air. I use Sara Adams' method and I apply MC generously and make sure that it seems to seep through both sheets based on the color changes! Any ideas what I might be doing very wrong and any general pointers with which to guide my work?
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origami_8
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by origami_8 »

Might be your paper is non-bleeding. In that case you need to apply the MC between the two layers to stick them together. The acrylics might be a problem too, real glass is far better suited.

Regarding the consistency opinions vary a lot. I've seem people use MC that was more of a thick gel and others use it so liquid it seems a wonder it does anything at all. To find the right consistency for you comes down to trial and error. You can make a very thick pulp, take out a little bit and water it down bit by bit and try with a small sheet to get a feeling for what works best for you.
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dinogami
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by dinogami »

Agreed with origami_8 that part of the problem might be the kind of tissue paper you have--the non-bleeding stuff seems far less agreeable than regular tissue paper, in my experience, too. I've had the same problems with it wrinkling as the MC is applied, and then not drying as nicely. I don't know about the acrylic being a problem, having never tried it as a substrate, but glass works wonderfully. I know it's expensive in the sizes required to make big sheets, but it's a worthwhile investment.

As for creating double tissue, I've had less luck adding MC to two overlapped sheets of tissue than with MCing one sheet and then rolling the next sheet over it, then using a paintbrush and/or brayer (hard rubber roller) to go over it and make sure all points adhere. The non-bleeding tissue seems to have more problems in delaminating later (the sheets coming apart) than with regular tissue or other papers, too, again in my experience.
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by bethnor »

unlike jerry and anna, i had a bad first experience with bleeding tissue. it was a variety pack from the craft chain, michael's, and it fell apart as soon as i applied the mc. since then i've stuck with non-bleeding, under the assumption that the properties that make it non-bleeding make it slightly more resilient to the application process.

either way, i think a "quality" tissue paper, as vague as that is, is more less likely to tear than "cheaper" tissue paper.

at least with the non-bleeding tissue paper, it helps to really slop the mc on. be very generous. if you think you've added enough, you should probably put on another layer.

though the recommendations are that your mc should be the consistency of raw eggs, i actually found that a little confusing... this is because even when very dilute, mc tends to travel in dollops, whereas raw eggs will drizzle (mc never drizzles for me). but if you think about it, to a degree, the final consistency of your mc shouldn't matter. if you dilute it to say, 0.1 mg/mL of mc, and you end up putting ~ 10 mL on your double sheet, this is no different than if you overdilute it to 0.05 mg/mL--you just have to make sure that you double the amount of mc you put on (20mL). either way, the water evaporates, leaving the mc in the paper, and, theoretically, you've added the same amount.

another frustrating thing to note is that, even within a certain brand how the mc is taken up by the tissue depends from color to color, probably due to the properties of the dye. for instance, i really like the tissue paper from target's, but on average, you have to apply the mc to one sheet, then roll the second sheet out on top, it won't soak through. however, with certain colors, it will. i like american greetings tissue paper for the soak through method, but some colors fall apart very easily, and some seem to need more mc to bond together than others.

so no matter what, some experimentation and trial and error will be required.
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Metangas
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Re: MC - Methyl Cellulose

Post by Metangas »

Thanks guys, I'll try the method from Advanced Origami with MC'ing the bottom sheet and then rolling another on top. The only tissue paper I've been able to find so far around here is a little difficult to evaluate on the bleeding/non-bleeding qualities, as it seems some colors bleed and others don't. I've heard that glass should be superior, but I haven't been able to find large, cheap-ish glass frames, and with my student income it is hard to enough to ration for paper and utilities - I don't even have a cutting mat, large steel ruler or a sharp hobby or roller knife yet!
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