Copyright vs the Need to Disseminate Knowledge

[long_quach]

Hello, Long Quach here again.

First and foremost, I am honest and I will never lie. So when I propose an idea, it is not proposed lightly. It takes me years of asking myself questions which I will ask you. Everything I talk about has historical precedence, I didn't just think of what I'm going to say just now. I am not a child and I don't ask childish questions.

This Forum is a living example of what this Forum can do. This is it. The prototype of my model was created 23 years ago and I was not able to perfect it. But within months on this Forum, it is now perfected. It is really simple, innovation is directly proportional to the speed of communication.

The beauty of origami, or any art actually, is that hidden in the models are artistic and technicalideas. People need ideas to create and innovate. And ideas should not be limited to how many books you print, because there are not that many printed books vs how many people are there in the world.

And take music for example, the debate as who owns the music, the musician or the record label is as old as music. Same thing with comic book writers vs. comic book companies.

Take my model for example, it comes directly out of Donald Duck in Mathemagicland and Kunihiko Kasahara's Object d'Art (Origami Omnibus). Which reminds me, I will put the diagrams of Object d'Art on my Flickr page. And thank goodness somebody put Donald Duck in Mathemagicland somewhere on the Internet.

And I know your knee-jerk reaction is "that's a no no." You gotta go out and buy the big fat book for $22 cover price. And you have to buy the Disney DVD, if it is still in print, and if it is available. Even assuming that money is no object, how many hardcopies do we really have around? And you know, you know, especially if you are parents, those Disney bastards will milk every penny out of their films and DVDs. But if you put them on the Internet, or pass them around through email, a billion people can have access to it.

I'm using my model as an example. It doesn't have to be my model. Take Verdi's Vase. Suppose it is not a traditional model but is copyrighted in a book, and I've seen it in a book, and I have it, but all my books are boxes, so I don't know which one.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11275#p120144

I came up with a method of dividing squares into thirds by folding this model. And I also found an improvement in the design of the model. I found 2 improvements. How am I going to share those improvement to the world? Write to the author? Write to publisher? What if I can't find them? What if they refuse? What if they claim it as their own? What if they like it but, but don't intend to publish it again because it will not be profitable? What if they'll publish it, but it will have to wait 10 years? What if they like my method of trisecting a square but don't want to give the analytical geometry proof because they think it might turn off readers? And so on and so on and so on.

I need Verdi's Vase to demonstrate what analytical geometry is. "But you can do it without...blah blah blah..." People forget the math they learn in school in a week after the exam, if they ever learn it in the first place. It is origami that made me remember everything I've ever learned in math. It is Verdi's Vase that that made me use analytical geometry to trisect and square. How else am I going to "sell" analytical geometry, which is what my model is built on?

If Verdi's Vase is copyrighted, we are all screwed.

I for one will put Object d'Art on my Flickr page. And it should be considered on honor for Kasahara. And if Japan Publications Incorporated Tokyo bitch about it, they'll be walking into a trap. See? I told you I'm honest.

[chris_t]

Wouldn't it be nice if everything was available for free? But you forget the other side of the coin, which is that if people can't earn money from their creations, because everyone can get them for free, they won't bother creating. So you won't get any more Verdi's Vases or Objects d'Art. People need their ideas protected.

Anyway, I suggest at the very least you edit your post to remove the swearing, I don't think it's going to be very popular with the mods, to put it lightly.

[phillipcurl]

Alright, before anyone else comments, I edited the swearing and some other stuff as someone reported the post last night,
We have no rule against swearing. We also have no rule against announcing your going to post copyrighted material on the internet. We do have a rule against abusing other users, and against linking to copyrighted material, though.

[gordigami]

While I, possibly sharing with other members , appreciate and applaud the open philosophy of discourse of this forum, there apparently arise occasions wherin that free and open philosophy is abused .

I believe that a line has been crossed when someone misuses this forum to expound upon diatribes, rants, and proclamations of flatulent self agrandizement .

Personally, I would also consider it contrary to the respect of origami to attack the intensive , exhaustive efforts of the many creative origami designers by belittling the usage of copyright .
Discussion and disagreement may be encouraged with hopes that decorum, respect and positive productivity be maintained.

[long_quach]

Speak in English please, you know, one syllable words from England and not French loan words.

Read George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language," 1946

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

I know people bullshit when they don't speak English. History tells me so, and I am edjamacated.

[origami_8]

Thing is, there is such a thing called copyright and we have to accept it even if we disagree with how it limits access to materials that otherwise would be available more easily. The problem when disregarding copyrights and sharing materials freely without permission of the copyright holder is that it can cost you a lot of money. Several creators stopped creating and sharing because they felt victims of theft when their copyright was compromised. So it is not only about money but also about respect to ask for permission before using someone else's work.
So Long Quach, if you want to share diagrams of specific models, you should seek to get permission first. We live in a small world and due to the internet it is rather easy to get in contact with other creators. If you need help in getting contact you can try asking the OAC whether they can help you out.
A way to show your improvements without infringing the copyright of the original creator, would be to post diagrams for your improvements only without the full set of diagrams that is needed to fold the model. I accept that this might not be satisfying for you but it is the saver way.

Just for the record: Swearing will not be tolerated on this Forum and if anyone thinks this Topic would be the right place to do so, he will have to live with the consequences. That's a friendly reminder to behave well on this Forum. Next step will be a warning and if that doesn't suffice I might add a ban.
Copyright discussions are always a hot subject and it is very easy to burn your fingers and hurt many people including yourself along the way. They are not forbidden on this Forum but are the most likely topics to be locked by a Moderator to avoid flame wars. So if I feel the subject drifts into a direction that doesn't comply with the Forum Moderator's morality codex it can happen that this topic gets locked without further warning.

[Fluffy]

I completely agree with you. But if swearing isn't tolerated, then why are there so many threads with swearing in it?

[the modern einstein]

ಠ_ಠ
There is a balance. Whilst there is a need for copyright during an artists lifetime, so artists do attain some wealth from their creations, and receive some credit for their works, I don't believe there is a need for copyright after the death of the creators though. The whole idea of copyright being able to be bought out detests me, as the people who actually created the piece do not receive any credit. As well as this I detest companies who abuse copyright laws, to stifle competition (as illustrated by Apple and Samsung, and Hollywood) and so are able to receive massive margins, that enriches their CEO's tenfold. The whole idea of Hollywood losing billions of dollars off piracy is a load of tosh, as they are still making record profits as we speak. So loosening piracy laws may not be the answer, but lowering prices of works, so they are more accessible, and there is more competition between companies is a definite. I don't want to be paying $50 AUS for a book I don't necessarily need, and which $40 of the price goes towards the artist, but I would happily pay $20 (obviously the artist still receives a profit, it is just a smaller margin) for it (remembering that the australian currency is one of the strongest in the world at the moment), instead of pirating it, which is better for everyone, as the artist actually receives some money, instead of I pirating it, and I receive that book I want, without having to utilise Illegal means.

Spotify is a good example of this positive compromise. (though slightly different to the core idea)
As well as this are youtube channels like funky panda, who post their music on youtube for all to watch for free, whilst still attaining some profit from their extremely low cost downloads on Beatport. (not soliciting for them, but saying they are a good example of what I'm talking about)

here are some articles relating to the idea I'm talking about (they probably explain it better too):

http://www.itwire.com/it-industry-news/ ... racy-study

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11547279

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/92806/repo ... er-prices/

[maddoghoek100]

seems like an appropriate spot to mention the Origami USA download service, as a medium for authors to garner the lions share of revenue for their work and to distribute diagrams at a reasonable price. Artists set the price and receive 70% of the revenue from every sale (give or take some fees). Seems win win and if volumes get high enough the price of new models would likely shrink.

http://origamiusa.org/catalog/books-dow ... -downloads

[gordigami]

Thank you, maddoghoek100, for reminding us of this terrific new opportunity to obtain diagrams legally and selectively .
We can thank Robert Lang, Marc Kirschenbaum and OrigamiUSA staff for their ingenious labours to provide this service.
Future opportunities will undoubtedly expand & grow as more buyers and contributors avail themselves of this service.
I can't wait to see what models become available from both professional as well as amateur designers in the future.
I am ecstatic to see designers compensated for their efforts, although the amount may never remotely approximate their labour .
I would hope that a " specific model request " feature might become available in the future .

[maddoghoek100]

You know there are a number of features on the wish list right now, but i think you have a great idea and a not so bad forum for it right here. Many designers do pop by this forum even if they dont always post, so perhaps starting a dedicated thread for designers to post their upcoming models and a thread to make requests would not be out of order.

Publishing contracts are what they are, so there are some models that just cant be made available or are already planned for another venue, but someone like Jason Ku, who frequents the forum to post about the new issue of the Fold just might not be aware of which of his models people would most like to see.

[gordigami]

Thank you , maddoghoek100, for your support as well as valuable advice regarding my impromptu, but somewhat premature desire for a " model request " feature on Origami USA's , The Source, diagram download service .
After a modicum of reflection, I have come to realize that I might be hindering, rather than helping, by starting a thread of model " wishlist" for that service.
It's probably never an optimal idea to add to the labours of others nor to provide pressure to an already labour intensive service as that of the Origami USA staff.
As you have already stated, there is a wish list , and my somewhat premature and feeble idea may well be addressed to that.
It does seem more appropriate for them to decide what is or is not viable for inclusion in the evolutionary development of their diagram/file download service.
Nor do I wish to jeopardize the origami model designers' opportunities & responsibilities in future projects.
There are so many variables, in the background, that we as consumers, are not aware .
I simply regret that there is not a better state of equilbrium between a designers' efforts versus their compensation.
In a nutshell, that is why I support copyrights.
Finally, I'm embarrassingly reminded of the Aesop fable, "The Dog And The Bone ".
http://www.first-school.ws/theme/fables ... ection.htm
I really don't need to be greedy in my quest to access new origami .

[qtrollip]

Hi Gordigami
Thank you for your respect towards designers and their work, I appreciate that!

I cannot speak for others, but I would generally say that compensation (whether monetary or other) is not the main limitation to designers making diagrams.
Honestly, there is no money in origami diagramming.
The main limitation is time.
I would love to diagram everything I design, even the not-so-good ones, but the amount of time it takes is on average 1-2 hours for a page (of 12 diagrams). That excludes the design itself and figuring out of a workable folding process. And then comes editing to fix mistakes, lay-out etc.
For someone with a full-time job who can only work on diagrams on weekends, but also has family commitments and other interests - all of a sudden we are talking about maybe 6-8 hours a month of diagramming!

So I don't know if higher compensation will translate to more diagrams.
For me personally, being invited as a special guest to conventions (as a result of publishing quite a number of diagrams) was of more value that monetary compensation. Perhaps that could be a bigger motivation for young up-and-coming designers.
Sadly, I have had to turn down some invitations due to time restrictions also!
Time, time, time!!!

[gordigami]

Hi Quentin !
Thanks for your kind & insightful response !
Am very sorry if my post came across with too much emphasis on compensation.
One look at the breath-taking aesthetic origami models by yourself, as well as others, easily conveys the love and admiration that you all have for origami.

I guess that , at times, I'm just overwhelmed by the unfairness of it all, in that designers seem to sacrifice so much, with minimal compensation, so that we may enjoy new models.

" I would love to diagram everything I design, even the not-so-good ones "
Which are so few that that hardly any time at all might be expended ....Ha Ha !

Yes , indeed , I certainly agree that time is precious, and origami is a true time-sapper.
I would very probably spend every moment I had, with origami, if I allowed myself. Very often I find myself folding into the wee hours.
However, I have a simple flowchart of priorities:
When it's origami vs. family---choose family
When it's origami vs. going outdoors or into nature---choose nature
When it's origami vs. living a well rounded life---choose the well rounded life.
When it's origami vs. watching tv---Choose origami
Here's hoping that 2013 finds you time to hike, rapel and camp in the beautiful mountains of Canada !

[qtrollip]

Thanks Gordigami
That's great advice - and very similar to the priorities I set myself.
And luckily there is absolutely nothing on tv anyway!

I hope you have a happy and healthy 2013 as well!

Quentin