Origami TV Champion 2008

origamimasterjared · Post by **origamimasterjared** » April 3rd, 2008, 4:51 am

Most people consider it a craft, like knitting or building models.

Ondrej.Cibulka · Post by **Ondrej.Cibulka** » April 3rd, 2008, 3:56 pm

Another purism thread? I did not participate on any such thread! I am sorry! I feel word "putism" as something pejorative so my contributions to such thread should be very conflictful.

I am sorry again, that I missed that change.

Jonnycakes · Post by **Jonnycakes** » April 3rd, 2008, 8:51 pm

origamimasterjared wrote:Most people consider it a craft, like knitting or building models.

I see what you mean. Even with more complex models it is still a problem, isn't it? I don't think there is a convincing case against origami being an art form, though.

origamimasterjared · Post by **origamimasterjared** » April 3rd, 2008, 9:24 pm

My feelings aside, to quote Joisel, "If anyone can do it, it's not art."

This is the major fault with origami as an art form. The mantra and mentality that "anyone can do it". When someone says "I can't do that", rather than agreeing and letting them just admire, we tend to say, "sure you can!"

If you do a paint-by-numbers of Leonardo Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, have you made art? No. How about if you just paint replica of the Mona Lisa? Still, not really. But now, what if you copy his Mona Lisa, but put your own interpretation and style into it, so that it is really unique and special, despite the obvious inspiration? You might have something there. Obviously you don't get the credit for creating the work, but perhaps your interpretation has brought it to new levels.

The analogs here would roughly be folding from diagrams, reverse-engineering/crease pattern, and putting your own touch into something you folded in either of the previous ways.

This is to say, it is possible for origami to be art, even if you are not the creator, though it is rather difficult and special.

As for creating, that is not automatically art either, depending on your perception of what art is....

(To be continued)

PS. We may want to move this discussion into a new topic.

Finward · Post by **Finward** » April 4th, 2008, 5:21 am

About the topic of the competition, im starting to feel that they're already arranged. I really admire Naoto horiguchi's work, but Katsuta Kyohei should have won. Perhaps his wasnt as complex, but it was a much better model.
I think Kamiya is one of the best (if not the best) folders of the world, but... the other guy scene wasnt bad. It was gorgeous. It can't be such a razing victory. so as with the looong ago challenge against Jeremy Shafer. Allright, he wins, but it can't be with so many votes.

origamimasterjared · Post by **origamimasterjared** » April 4th, 2008, 6:59 am

It might appear like that at first, but think of it this way: If you were asked which was better, you would say Kamiya's, right? If I were asked, I would say Kamiya's. I would expect easily eight out of ten (yes I'm making this number up) to say Kamiya's was better. Even if it was only slightly better, if it was obviously better (say, 55% Kamiya, 45% Miyamoto), you're still supposed to vote for which was better. You don't get to split votes.

Miyamoto has certainly improved a lot. He seemed a worthy competitor to Kamiya, but he didn't quite have it. And I agree, I would have voted Katsuta over Horiguchi, but just barely. And had I not been so influenced by seeing so much of Horiguchi's work, I'm not sure which I would choose. The two of them seem to have mastered box-pleating better than anyone else.

Ondrej.Cibulka · Post by **Ondrej.Cibulka** » April 4th, 2008, 3:20 pm

I agree too. That beatle was not better. And Miyamoto's fish is the best model in competition. (Clown has short legs.)

Jonnycakes · Post by **Jonnycakes** » April 4th, 2008, 4:18 pm

The short legs could be a stylistic attribute, but I still liked the lionfish more.

mrsriggins · Post by **mrsriggins** » April 4th, 2008, 6:02 pm

As for Origami being art.... It most certainly is. Just because anyone can reproduce a similar model but very few people will be able to fold a ryu zin that looks like Kamiyas. Yeah you might be able to fold it but most will never get it perfect and as extremely detailed as he does.

I've noticed designers always have a special artistic-ness with their models and the way they shape them that when you look at a picture you say THAT is Kamiya's model and not a remake.

For example:

See the difference between kamiya's original and a remake. It's just never quite the same even though this is one of the best remakes I have seen (Great job Artur, by the way!) but still Kamiya does it best.... Just like the Mona Lisa you can try to recreate it all you want but Da Vinci's will always have something about it that makes it better

Joe the white · Post by **Joe the white** » April 4th, 2008, 6:16 pm

This competition seems much more different than those in the past. I'd say the final diorama scene was pretty much a tie. Miyamoto's scene had more energy, but Kamiya had more pieces.

As for purism, tools are fairly unimportant to me, as long as the paper is still square and uncut I'm fine with it.

Origami is an Art and a Craft, by definition. Anyone can do art or crafts, wether they're "good" at it or not is another thing. Imitating the Mona Lisa or the Ryu Zin, diagrams or not, its more of a personal feeling you recieve from the finished product that people use to define it (in a modern way) as one or the other. Most people may not see it as an "art" yet, much like I don't see graffiti or tattoos as one, but with continued effort it will be.

origamimasterjared · Post by **origamimasterjared** » April 4th, 2008, 7:58 pm

mrsriggins, that is a different version of the ryu-zin.

The version Artur folded is version 2.1, which corresponds to this:
[img]http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8470/untitled5pr.png[/img]

He actually is working on version 3.5, which is looking pretty darn good.

.........

And while the lionfish was possibly the best single piece in the competition. It was used in the first round. You don't get to just be carried all the way by the first round. Remember as defending champion, Kamiya didn't even compete in the first round. He might have blown that out of the water.

Kamiya's final scene was better (in my opinion at least, and I believe technically, and truly) than Miyamoto's. The fact that Kamiya's scene had more pieces means little, except that he accomplished more in the time allotted. His was much better folded, and fit together better. Miyamoto's marlin was awesome, but the rest of it needed work.

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » April 4th, 2008, 9:04 pm

I thought that Miyamoto's stuff tended to be a bit sloppy, but maybe that's just me. I did like Miyamoto's theme better, but it wasn't executed AS well.

Ondrej.Cibulka · Post by **Ondrej.Cibulka** » April 6th, 2008, 4:36 pm

The main problem is that Kamyia made more characters than Miyamoto. And also visualization that fish is stright on the wave above the man in the boat is not good. When I saw image, I start to look forward to see curve fish contrary to every other straight origami fishes. I was very disapointed to see again straight fish.

Jonnycakes · Post by **Jonnycakes** » April 6th, 2008, 5:01 pm

Kamiya's designs were also folded MUCH more cleanly than anyone else's in the competition. It is truly amazing how cleanly he folds even the most complex stuff. Everyone had great designs, but Kamiya just folded his better.

qtrollip · Post by **qtrollip** » April 6th, 2008, 11:15 pm

Well, did you see how relieved Kamiya was when he won. He obviously knew he was up against tough competition.