[foobaz]

Thanks for your reply. And thanks for your wonderful tesselation website.

2.) nothing that I have is based on Fujimoto, as unfortunately I had no access to his work or any information about him until recently. A minor detail, but one which still makes me kind of sad, as having some good reference material when I started would have been helpful.

How come you didn't have access to his work? You mean it has only been published recently?

I don't have any instructions for these things, and Chris is usually pretty busy so I don't know if an email is going to get the result you want- but then again he does this stuff for a living, so asking for free things from someone who is trying to make a living from his origami work really doesn't go over so well.

OK so you are a personal friend of his so you are defending him. I guess that's only natural. But just look at it from a simple PR and marketing point of view. A person such as myself, who has never heard of this guy before watching a video, which briefly showcases his work, tries to find some information about him and only finds his two-page website, one page of which promotes his relatively expensive DVDs. So he writes the guy a brief complimentary email and receives a curt one-line reply saying that the guy can find the CP on one of his DVDs with a link to the page promoting the DVDs. That has two effects. One, he comes off as being rather arrogant, not caring to even write a few lines of encouragement to an admiring fan, not even willing to share a small thing like a CP of ONE of his works. Two, sending a link to something that costs money to a simple request like that is tantamount to spamming. And the web page has very little about what is on the DVD. No examples. No free diagrams. Compare that to your blog, the websites of well-known people like Robert Lang and Erik Demaine, who have written erudite treatises on the subject, and who offer free diagrams and even software, in Robert Lang's case, on their sites with many many images of their work. Jeremy Shafer's site has many free CPs and images. You have many CPs on your site with discussions of the models. Your book is on Google Books and is reasonably priced. Personally I would buy a book whose contents are crystal clear and is reviewed and reasonably priced before I would consider a DVD with unknown content. But I guess that's just me.

You might try looking for the diagrams for previous models in the BARF archives, from Jeremy Shafer? it might still be rolling around there somewhere.

That is where I started. Iso-Area Flasher [PDF] Folding that gave me much insight into the general principle.

A polite request to Chris about making this pattern available for purchase might meet with better results, though- if he has the time he might consider it? You'll have to give it a try and see.

Maybe a good suggestion but at this point it wouldn't matter since I have had more fun learning, and evolving my own design.

He had some of these with him and they were pretty cool

Yes they definitely are.

[ahudson]

Most of Shuzo Fujimoto's books were self-published in the 1980s, so until somebody organized a reprinting about a year ago, they only copies that existed were a few given out by Fujimoto himself; they weren't full books, more like research notes. There was one book of his that was published by a mainstream publisher, but it was only available in Japan and I think may be out of print now.

Chris Palmer's work is also kind of hard to find-- his DVDs are only available through his website and a couple other places, and it seems hardly anyone has bought them (aside from Brimstone, I've never seen anybody else post models from them)

And remember that most of us put a huge amount of time into our models-- between design and diagramming, a low complex model can take 10-20 hours of work. Asking us to give all that away just because you want to fold something is pretty selfish of you Some of us give away our work voluntarily, but you shouldn't expect that.

[foobaz]

And remember that most of us put a huge amount of time into our models-- between design and diagramming, a low complex model can take 10-20 hours of work. Asking us to give all that away just because you want to fold something is pretty selfish of you Some of us give away our work voluntarily, but you shouldn't expect that.

I have spent many hours on this design problem and other ones as well so I'm no stranger to the concept. Making highly exaggerated remarks like "Asking us to give all that away just because you want to fold something is pretty selfish of you" is very irresponsible and somewhat insulting. I only asked for the ONE diagram after all.

[ahudson]

I'm sorry you found my post insulting, but think about it from a designer's point of view-- it's really annoying to be asked for instructions, especially when you've already provided them at a reasonable cost.

Seriously though, I don't want to get in a flame war over this. I felt that you were being unfair towards Mr. Palmer, that's all I wanted to get across. I'm sorry you felt so offended by my comments; they were meant as advice, not as an attack.

[origamimasterjared]

Aaaaactually...

One 50-step diagram takes me 10 hours easily. 10 hours x $20 an hour is $200 right there. It's 10 hours spent doing one thing that could be spent doing something else. And that's assuming the alternative is only $20 an hour.

And him replying to your request for instructions by directing you to a video he was kind enough to share with the public for whatever price is in NO WAY spam. You should be happy you even got a response.

Also, he does have a few CPs available. Tanteidan 8th Convention Book had CPs for a few of his Flower Towers. And his own website has a crease pattern for one of his PolyPouches. Go here to see some PolyPouch previews, including a CP: http://www.shadowfolds.com/polypouches/ He's also got a sample PolyPost available for free download here: http://www.polypost.com/ Don't discredit him so quickly!

[foobaz]

I'm sorry you found my post insulting, but think about it from a designer's point of view-- it's really annoying to be asked for instructions, especially when you've already provided them at a reasonable cost.

Seriously though, I don't want to get in a flame war over this. I felt that you were being unfair towards Mr. Palmer, that's all I wanted to get across. I'm sorry you felt so offended by my comments; they were meant as advice, not as an attack.

OK well in that case, lets' just amicably disagree. I think I was being fair and not overly negative. I don't think it's hard to understand where I'M coming from either. And you have to admit, not many high profile folders are that way, viz. the ones I already mentioned.

In any case I'm having a lot of fun doing it myself.

[foobaz]

One 50-step diagram takes me 10 hours easily. 10 hours x $20 an hour is $200 right there.

I have a question. Who would pay you that much?

And him replying to your request for instructions by directing you to a video he was kind enough to share with the public for whatever price is in NO WAY spam.

Just for the record, there was no video. Go to his website and check out the DVD order page. That's what he sent me. You really don't seem to be well informed about what you post.

You should be happy you even got a response.

Now that IS arrogant.

Also, he does have a few CPs available. Tanteidan 8th Convention Book had CPs for a few of his Flower Towers.

Oh is that at his site? I seem to have missed that. Do you have the links? I did find the other two.

Don't discredit him so quickly!

I am in no way discrediting him. In fact I said multiple times I like some of his work. Suggest that you reread what has come before and THEN post.

[origamimasterjared]

I have a question. Who would pay you that much?

There are two answers to this:

• Number one, anyone who thinks it worth it. Origami artists sell works for hundreds, even thousands of dollars each. Diagramming is more laborious, and takes more time. While less artistic, it should be expected that it would be costly.
  
  Number two, I wasn't necessarily referring to being paid $20 an hour for the diagrams. I said the alternative. As in, what your time is worth to you when you're not diagramming. It could be that you have a job that pays $20 an hour or whatever. For instance, a public high school math teacher will often charge $50-$60 an hour, as that's about their normal salary. I currently make $20-$35 as a math tutor (I have a BS). Is everyone willing to pay that much? No. But those who really want it are.

You really don't seem to be well informed about what you post.

You're flat wrong here. I spent a bit of time digging for stuff. I pride myself on being very well-informed and being as helpful as I can in all my posts.

You should be happy you even got a response.

Now that IS arrogant.

No, it's true. Why should he want to respond to someone looking for free stuff? Because it will make you happy? Would him responding in a generous manner, providing something for free cause him any good publicity? I say no. You would most likely just go on your merry way without announcing how awesome he was in helping you out. If you did you would likely let slip the fact that he gave you something. At that point the flood gates would open for everyone to request something, since you had been successful. Then there would be "Oh you gave it to that guy, what about me?" It wouldn't be good. If you were to say how great he was in helping you out, and leave out the fact that he gave you anything, you might be able to pull off something mutually beneficial. As it is, he responded, and you've posted up negative publicity.

I'm not saying that's how he or even I think, just that you need to look at it from another perspective besides "I'm a fan, I want [free] diagrams." I'm assuming you asked him about the Hat-tent. I assume he directed you to the CD of his Boxes, which includes the Hat-tent. If you were to ask me about my Bear I would direct you to the Tanteidan 14th Convention Book. If you asked me about one of the works for which I've provided free diagrams in Origami Weekly, I would direct you there. And if it's something I haven't made diagrams for, I would say that. If diagrams came magically with designing and folding, it would be a different world. For one thing, I'd already have a book or two done.

Oh is that at his site? I seem to have missed that. Do you have the links? I did find the other two.

No, they're in a popular book he didn't write and gets no money for. If you're desperate I'm sure you can find some illegal copies online. I was simply pointing out places to find samples of his work for cheaper than a $40 CD.

I am in no way discrediting him. In fact I said multiple times I like some of his work. Suggest that you reread what has come before and THEN post.

I did read everything you've posted, thoroughly. I didn't say you were discrediting his work. Obviously you like "some of it," otherwise you wouldn't be here discussing it. I said you were discrediting HIM. I stand by that statement.

I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate it if he released more. I was never really into Chris Palmer, but I would like to see more of his work. If he wants to be private about it, it's his choice.

[Foldingsmith]

One 50-step diagram takes me 10 hours easily. 10 hours x $20 an hour is $200 right there.

I have a question. Who would pay you that much?

foobaz, how much do you consider your own time worth? Chris Palmer is a professional who makes his living from his work. If he isn't adequately compensated for his time and efforts, if an origami artist can't sustain himself, then he will devote less time to the art (your hobby is his livelihood) and pick up a trade where he can earn a decent wage.

If you think $20/hour to pay someone to produce diagrams for what some would consider blueprints to producing valued art is expensive, that just baffles me.

The following story through Thomas Sowell comes to mind:

A tourist in New York's Greenwich Village had his portrait sketched by a sidewalk artist, who charged him $100.

"That's expensive," the tourist said. "But it's a great sketch, so I'll pay it. But, really, it took you just five minutes."

"Twenty years and five minutes," the artist replied.

In my opinion, many origami artists don't get the proper respect that they deserve. Nor are they ever fully compensated for the time and effort they put into making their work available to others.

For most of us, origami may be nothing more than a hobby. But for others- those who produce new works- it may be their primary source of income that allows them to spend the time and have the incentive to create new stuff.

[redheadorigami]

Im sorry, but calling him arrogant? duck you. I got the cds for my birthday and he even sent a message with them. One of the cds was blank and he was kind enough to send a new one.

[origamifreak_1.6180339889]

chris palmer doesnt need to draw diagrams/cp. they are HARD to make. and i imagine his would be esecially hard. after drawing my first diagram, i began to wonder how i got origami insects 2 for 50$ you are lucky hes even making those cds avaible. if youre so happy with youre designs, then why do you need his? there are thousands of other things to fold.

[WhisperPuffin]

Seriously though, I don't want to get in a flame war over this.

We should think a bit more like Andrew.