Why not OTM in English?

[rdrutel]

I am very happy that we have you here, Koichi Tateishi, as someone that is directly from JOAS. I want to stress that my point of starting this discussion was not to demand or critisize, but rather try to find out what could be done to move in the direction of translation.
It appears that you included two general points:
1-Time 2-Money

So I have 3 questions:

1-What do you/JOAS feel you would need to provide translations to the Japanese articles? This may even be in the manner suggested above..simply printed out on regular paper and not directly in the magazine. Could JOAS provide a rough estimate on the cost of this or the amount of subscribers it would need?

2-You did include some articles bilingually (e.g. #89 Robert Lang's "Lectures On Origami Mathematics"). Since this was done before, and no translation to English was necessary, could this be done in the future? Also, the average number of articles/crease patterns in the past few years by non-Japanese contributors is about 6-7 per period. These appear to have been translated into Japanese, gathering from the authors, probably from English. Could you provide the English versions originally submitted?

3-I agree that Japanese is a popular language, but its popularity stems from the population of Japan because it is far from popular as a secondary language. English would have a much farther reach being the most common language used to communicate in other countries. But, like you said, you believe you have a larger number of Japanese customers. This is what pharmjod refered to above and what everyone is interested in...where are all of your customers from? It may be that potential customers are discouraged by only seeing Japanese?

Like I said before, neither I nor anyone else I believe, is demanding JOAS to change or do what we say. This is far from the point. I would like to know how JOAS members/subscribers could gain access, in one way or another, to translations. If you, or someone at JOAS that you forward, could answer the questions above, I, and I am sure many others would be very grateful. I think we could at least move forward by knowing what it would take to potentially reach more customers and get translations.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

-Robert O. Drutel

[Koichi Tateishi]

1 Estimate: Hmm...I personally receive approximately 100,000 yen per year for translating those bits of articles and headlines, and I think that this FAR less than what professionals receive. I do not know how much of the whole thing I am translating, perhaps just a little amount. As JOAS' budget does not exceed single-figured millions, I think that translating the whole thing would make the OTM and JOAS go bankrupt.

2 Yes, we do translation of some articles, the choice of which is decided on by the monthly Board Meeting, perhaps on a significancy basis on their measure (the meeting is in Tokyo and I can only occasionally attend through Skype). Having diagrams of creators from abroad, if there is a problem, makes the magazine longer, I mean, increasing in the number of pages, which also makes the cost significantly higher in the Japanese printing business. (If the article needs an extra one page, we need four extra pages, given the way of binding that magazine, which makes that magazine 12.5% higher in cost)

3 Well, we actually do have customers from all over the world, I admit, and I DO know English is a very important lingua franca of the world, but the problem would be, the majority of the customers, esp. Japanese subscribers, are sort of allergenic against the English language (you know how Japanese are bad at English, don't you?　 ), so it is truly probable having so much amount of the magazine in English would cause significant decrease in the number of subscribers.

[pharmjod]

Thanks for your considerate replies Koichi Tateishi! It seems like the recurring theme is budgetary constraints which makes complete sense. I suspect that the amount of increased cost to the consumer for an english translation would make it less appealing to subscribe for the majority of people.

One thing that was mentioned that has gone without further comment though: would you be willing to ask the leadership at JOAS about the idea of letting members vote on the special edition model? I realize this may not be possible, but if there are several models each year that JOAS selects from for the special edition, allowing members to have a small say in the selection would be fun for the members and allow us to feel more a part of the process. I am only speaking for myself, but I imagine I'm not alone in this regard. Thanks for all of your time and thoughtful responses!

[HankSimon]

I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, but would like to propose an electronic solution, if it is practical and simple to implement.

Would it be possible to provide the Japanese text in an electronic format that we could then use online tools, such as Google translation, to translate to English or another language?

1. I propose only the text to reduce the concern about illegal copies.
2. I understand that machine translation isn't very good, but it may help.
3. A scan wouldn't help, because the translation software won't work.
4. And, I realize that this may not even be practical for JOAS.

I appreciate your patience with us.

- Hank Simon

[Juanfran]

Surely, it's a big pity that most part of origami people around the world is losing such a interesting knowledge. Indeed, I would pay an extra to get those articles in English but I know that maybe other people would'nt.

I suggest two options: find more bilingual people to, without any cost, translate those articles, I am sure they must be out there somewhere.
Another option, I will absolutely pay for a compilation of translated articles from all tanteidan magazines. A book by Origami House would be amazing.

[Koichi Tateishi]

It is the the beginning　of the semester in Japan, and we do have tons of work.

1 On-line versions: We truly worry about Net-Piracy and infringement of copyrights. We JOAS are basically in agreement with OAC on that matter.

2 Special Edition and Finding More Bilingual People: This requires some more people who:

a. understand origami
b. are with some academic backgrounds, but
c. with enough time not to be chased by the real job.

Hatori-san and I are the ONLY people they could find in 20 years' history of JOAS (or Origami Tanteidan), so I would say it is truly hard to find the workforce. Also, costwise, we are worried about how many copies of such a special edition would sell, as it is much more costly than the oridinary issues in its making and editing.

[pharmjod]

Simply because you mentioned it I feel compelled to respond. The idea of letting members vote on the contents of the special edition costs JOAS nothing. By virtue of the fact that members would be voting, they have already purchased the special edition so that would not be an issues either. Also, if JOAS just produced enough of the special edition to cover current memberships, I don't see that any extra cost would be incurred either.

Obviously if there are printing requirement (ie minimum of 500 copies to be cost effective) there would be left over issues, but if the model were one that was chosen by the members, the likelihood of it being popular enough to sell the remaining copies would also be fairly high. If it is good enough for members to want it, odds are other people will want to order it once they see it.

As for the cost of a bilingual version, that makes sense. Also, I completely understand the concerns with online versions and piracy. I think the suggestion was not that diagrams be published online, just the text of articles (in Japanese), simply for interested parties to use online translating software to at least get a rough estimate of the article discussion. I hardly think most of the typical origami pirates care about articles, and even if they did again, we're talking about text with no diagrams. But obviously that is a matter between the JOAS and contributors.

Again, thank you for your time and for your involvement in what is the premiere origami periodical in the world. We are simply throwing out suggestions to perhaps enhance how others enjoy the magazine.

[Rdude]

Have you considered the possibility of finding an interested individual who is already a member, or a subscriber to OTM who would be willing volunteer to do the translations, maybe receiving a subscription to the magazine for free in return? That would cost far less than hiring an additional translator. With this arrangement the staff at OTM could send the text files to the individual, who would translate them to english, and email them back to the OTM editors. Then the translated text could be offered for purchase along with the magazine subscription as a simple paper pamphlet, with just text (at a price that would offset the cost of printing the small booklets)

I don't know how well this would work, but if a 1 page advertisement was sent along with the magazine to ask if any memebr would be willing to volunteer, it might be possible to find a translator this way. I can imagine that translating is a lot of work, but I would totally be willing to try, if only I could read (or even speak) Japanese

Again, thank you for your insight Koichi Tateishi!

[rdrutel]

These are good points...maybe there are some people who subscribe to the magazine that would be interested. I guess the concern is to have reliable people that will stay with the job.

I also very much agree with the voting that pharmjod brought up. There must be a simple way for JOAS to do this and it would draw people into wanting to take part.

I also wanted to note what I had mentioned above, that there would be no need to translate what English-speakers contribute since I assume they provide you with an English version. The most recent example would be in OTM 120, the Bicycle CP by Jason Ku. We only see the CP and two diagrams, but the text would be most informative. In the special edition, you include the English translation to Origami Constructions as an additional piece. Could something like this be added at the end of each subscription period? If you sent the last magazine, the special edition, and then an additional translated pamphlet with previous English articles? Even if the pamphlet only contained the originally English articles only, it would be a step forward!
But, like has been said before, JOAS has to weigh out the possibilities. I would just like to know that our ideas are being heard and considered and that all of the board members, including yourself, simply take these into consideration and hopefully look for new ideas and possibilities.

Thanks again for your time and willingness to be a part of this discussion!

[HankSimon]

I think it is more up to us, as the requestors, to find some folks who have the time and ability to do the translations. Then, offer these folks to JOAS, Hatori-san, and Koichi Tateishi for their consideration with full veto.

This allows JOAS to maintain both control of the content, as well as control over the quality.

Based on the volunteer and non-profit motive of JOAS, I don't think we should expect them to locate additional translators, based on the current discussion.

So, who do we know that reads Japanese Origami fluently, and could translate it to English ?

- Hank Simon

[qtrollip]

My wife...but she's not interested unfortunately!

[andssl]

I believe that they can do one thing without great costs: an online japanese-english translation of principal origami terms (e.g. naka wari ori = inside reverse fold)

This helps so much...

[eric_son]

Hi Tateishi-san,

As a compromise, would it be possible to publish the FURIGANA characters on top of the KANJI on future issues?

Knowing how to pronounce the Kanji characters (via the Furigana) will make it easier translate.

I usually transcribe parts of the OTM articles by re-typing them on notepad, then running them through a translator. Unfortunately, my Kanji vocabulary is very limited and I frequently have to use the Kanji dictionary to be able to know the kana used for inputting the characters.

Ijou, yoroshiku onegai itashimasu.