I'm not interested in folding Kamiya's Ancient Dragon... but Shuki's 6 inch model is terrific.
The larger models don't interest me, but I'd love to take lessons from him on how to do that. They'd make fantastic gifts.
- Hank Simon
Satoshi Kamiya - Ancient Dragon
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Hydraxon493
- Newbie
- Posts: 41
- Joined: November 25th, 2009, 2:43 am
Does it really matter what paper you use?Adam wrote:Choosing the right paper makes a lot of difference; It can either make a model look like a statue or bring it to life.
Does size matter?
Does it matter what paper you use, so long as it works.
No.
Like you said, its not a contest, youre not pleasing others, youre pleasing yourself.
No, Michael LaFosse was not wasting his time making the paper.
Its a good paper, no doubt.
just use a basic paper to get the job done.
I think that seventh cookie was a mistake...
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
Congratulations on missing the point. The point is that tissue-foil can indeed be used to fold certain models, but it certainly isn't the best choice for this model, or many other models for that matter. If you, for whatever strange reason, insist on using it yourself then feel free to do so. However, I'd rather inform others of better, id est, superior alternatives to tissue-foil, so that they have a higher chance in successfully making a nice looking dragon - especially if it's their first attempt.
I love the way you contradict your previous post, in which you treat multiple aspects of Origami as a contest, yet now you say it's not a contest. Which one is it?
/* Apologies to the moderators, if this is deemed to be thread derailment */
I love the way you contradict your previous post, in which you treat multiple aspects of Origami as a contest, yet now you say it's not a contest. Which one is it?
If everyone would have this kind of mindset, we'd still be in the stone age. After all, having no developed technology, agriculture, central authority and various other things seemed to 'get the job done'. Why should we have moved away from such a situation..?just use a basic paper to get the job done.
/* Apologies to the moderators, if this is deemed to be thread derailment */
I think that the problem is what's your goal making origami:
Do you prefer to make the smallest possible?
Or to fold the most impossible CP in the shorter time?
Or to obtain a result anyway, even if in the end the finished model is crumpled, crushed and has only a fair resemble of what should be?
Or to fold a model so perfectly that the author himself should envy?
Or something else?
Every choice is legitimate, but in every case there is a kind of paper, different each time, better than others to achieve the specific goal.
Do you prefer to make the smallest possible?
Or to fold the most impossible CP in the shorter time?
Or to obtain a result anyway, even if in the end the finished model is crumpled, crushed and has only a fair resemble of what should be?
Or to fold a model so perfectly that the author himself should envy?
Or something else?
Every choice is legitimate, but in every case there is a kind of paper, different each time, better than others to achieve the specific goal.
Last edited by Moog on May 20th, 2010, 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Hydraxon493
- Newbie
- Posts: 41
- Joined: November 25th, 2009, 2:43 am
I like foil.
You like 'proper-looking paper).
I like small.
You like big.
You get it perfect.
I get it done.
Just let it go.
You like 'proper-looking paper).
I like small.
You like big.
You get it perfect.
I get it done.
Just let it go.
I think that seventh cookie was a mistake...
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
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Hydraxon493
- Newbie
- Posts: 41
- Joined: November 25th, 2009, 2:43 am
You are completely and utterly correct. I bow down to you of masterful one. You are right in the fact that I am not a person and am not allowed to have an opinion. I must like the exact same paper as you. We must all be the same. Socialist.
I think that seventh cookie was a mistake...
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
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RollerCoasterBug
- Junior Member
- Posts: 101
- Joined: April 7th, 2010, 2:13 am
- Location: Mesa, AZ
instead of folding the dragon from the CP, try finding the diagrams. The book is expensive, but worth the save. The save is worth your time. You're going to fold it more times using the cp and get the shaping wrong than you will with diagrams. Some places sell the book more cheaper than others. Just look around. I will assure you that there will be no free diagrams of this model.
nosyrb
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Hydraxon493
- Newbie
- Posts: 41
- Joined: November 25th, 2009, 2:43 am
Sorry, sarcasm.
I'm just gonna speak my mind now, so...
I have set myself a challenge. A challenge of making a small but beautiful Ancient Dragon. My goal is to make a pair of Divine and Ancient dragon out of small foil.
You have set yourself a challenge. challenge of making a beautiful and detailed Ancient Dragon. You would also like to help others in making their beautiful and detailed Ancient Dragon.
I'm saying this to make the point that we have different aspects of Origami on our minds. Now, seriously don't reply, because I'm sure that the others on here are sick of this pointless argument.
I'm just gonna speak my mind now, so...
I have set myself a challenge. A challenge of making a small but beautiful Ancient Dragon. My goal is to make a pair of Divine and Ancient dragon out of small foil.
You have set yourself a challenge. challenge of making a beautiful and detailed Ancient Dragon. You would also like to help others in making their beautiful and detailed Ancient Dragon.
I'm saying this to make the point that we have different aspects of Origami on our minds. Now, seriously don't reply, because I'm sure that the others on here are sick of this pointless argument.
I think that seventh cookie was a mistake...
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
Huzzah!
My Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43972761@N03/
Congratulations on one of the most arrogant posts that have ever been made on this Forum.
By the way, I made an Ancient Dragon from a 15cm tissue paper square. It was neither fun to fold it nor did the final model really look good. I have some dragons folded from double tissue paper and also one from foilpaper. For this model something that reverses Creases easily is recommendable. Therefore foil isn't a good choice. Even though you most probably are able to finish a small dragon, it won't look good. The Ancient dragon is a model that gets incredible thick even with the thinnest paper. If you want to work on the details and get a really beautiful dragon the only possible way is to take a larger sheet.
On your scrappy pictures it is impossible to say how the dragon really looks like. Maybe you should go along and make some good photos to show us the quality of your dragon. For the photos choose a neutral background (e.g. a large sheet of paper) and go at least a meter away from the model. Look if there are different settings on your camera like for example macro zoom and don't use flash. Place the model on a good lit place but not directly under a lamp or in the sun. You can use some paper to diffuse the light.
By the way, I made an Ancient Dragon from a 15cm tissue paper square. It was neither fun to fold it nor did the final model really look good. I have some dragons folded from double tissue paper and also one from foilpaper. For this model something that reverses Creases easily is recommendable. Therefore foil isn't a good choice. Even though you most probably are able to finish a small dragon, it won't look good. The Ancient dragon is a model that gets incredible thick even with the thinnest paper. If you want to work on the details and get a really beautiful dragon the only possible way is to take a larger sheet.
On your scrappy pictures it is impossible to say how the dragon really looks like. Maybe you should go along and make some good photos to show us the quality of your dragon. For the photos choose a neutral background (e.g. a large sheet of paper) and go at least a meter away from the model. Look if there are different settings on your camera like for example macro zoom and don't use flash. Place the model on a good lit place but not directly under a lamp or in the sun. You can use some paper to diffuse the light.
just to throw in an additional $0.02:
the responses aren't about what our personal preferences are. it's about what we suggest to others who are having a difficult time with the model. and using smaller pieces of foil will not help someone who is having a difficult time with the model. this isn't to say that making the dragon from a small square isn't possible, just that it can be hard.
i'm always puzzled when people recommend tissue foil for people who are trying this model for the first time and having difficulty. much of the time required for this model is spent precreasing. and ordinary tissue foil doesn't hold a crease well; you can smooth it out with your fingers. so you potentially spend a lot of time precreasing, but it doesn't really help you the way it's supposed to with another medium. for instance, when you precrease a hideo komatsu model, it reaches a sort of point where you "flip the switch" and the model collapses into a base (which is why so many people love his folding sequences, IMHO), but you would have to work at it more than usual if you chose tissue foil as a medium.
as anna points out, this property of tissue foil (and, to a lesser degree, japanese and american foil) makes it hard to reverse a crease neatly, making open/closed sinks/unsinks harder than they would be with another medium. again, that's not to say they're impossible, but if someone is folding this model for the first time, "every little bit helps," says the old woman who peed in the ocean.
and while neatness/completeness doesn't always matter, most origami folders, by nature, are somewhat obsessive compulsive/meticulous. so it probably annoys most folders, at least a little, when they have to skip a step or when the sink isn't as neat as it should have been. with a smaller piece of foil, you will likely have to do both to complete the model, which goes against the nature of many folders.
lastly, as i've said before, making a piece of tissue foil requires some effort. if you're not going to use glue, you do need an open space. someone on this forum actually got symptomatic (chest pain and shortness of breath!) while making tissue foil. if you mess up, all that effort (which also goes for resizing handmade papers and making double tissue) goes to waste. obviously, with tissue foil, you could unfold everything, flatten it out, and try again, but that can also be very involved, depending on how far you're gotten.
this is why, for first attempts, if you live in the US, IMHO, the easiest way to practice the dragon is to tape four pieces of kami together. most of us have more kami than we could ever use anyway. the final product will not be something that you could display, but it will give you an idea of the difficulties and pitfalls in the model. sinks happen almost by themselves, especially when compared to any kind of foil. after you complete the dragon, you can use a nicer paper. if you mess up--no problem, scrap it, tape another four pieces together, and try again. one can certainly do the same with four pieces of japanese foil, but one may not have one of the same color on hand the way you would with kami.
gift wrap and kraft are alternatives, the problem being those are highly heterogeneous products. most gift wrapping paper and kraft i've tried is very floppy, which can get annoying, especially if your starting square was large. it can also be difficult to cut a perfect square, which may again annoy those are obsessive-compulsive/meticulous.
i will dissent with adam and say that cecilia's ancient dragon from kraft is gorgeous. one could argue that it would look even better with another medium, and i wouldn' t necessarily disagree. regardless.
the responses aren't about what our personal preferences are. it's about what we suggest to others who are having a difficult time with the model. and using smaller pieces of foil will not help someone who is having a difficult time with the model. this isn't to say that making the dragon from a small square isn't possible, just that it can be hard.
i'm always puzzled when people recommend tissue foil for people who are trying this model for the first time and having difficulty. much of the time required for this model is spent precreasing. and ordinary tissue foil doesn't hold a crease well; you can smooth it out with your fingers. so you potentially spend a lot of time precreasing, but it doesn't really help you the way it's supposed to with another medium. for instance, when you precrease a hideo komatsu model, it reaches a sort of point where you "flip the switch" and the model collapses into a base (which is why so many people love his folding sequences, IMHO), but you would have to work at it more than usual if you chose tissue foil as a medium.
as anna points out, this property of tissue foil (and, to a lesser degree, japanese and american foil) makes it hard to reverse a crease neatly, making open/closed sinks/unsinks harder than they would be with another medium. again, that's not to say they're impossible, but if someone is folding this model for the first time, "every little bit helps," says the old woman who peed in the ocean.
and while neatness/completeness doesn't always matter, most origami folders, by nature, are somewhat obsessive compulsive/meticulous. so it probably annoys most folders, at least a little, when they have to skip a step or when the sink isn't as neat as it should have been. with a smaller piece of foil, you will likely have to do both to complete the model, which goes against the nature of many folders.
lastly, as i've said before, making a piece of tissue foil requires some effort. if you're not going to use glue, you do need an open space. someone on this forum actually got symptomatic (chest pain and shortness of breath!) while making tissue foil. if you mess up, all that effort (which also goes for resizing handmade papers and making double tissue) goes to waste. obviously, with tissue foil, you could unfold everything, flatten it out, and try again, but that can also be very involved, depending on how far you're gotten.
this is why, for first attempts, if you live in the US, IMHO, the easiest way to practice the dragon is to tape four pieces of kami together. most of us have more kami than we could ever use anyway. the final product will not be something that you could display, but it will give you an idea of the difficulties and pitfalls in the model. sinks happen almost by themselves, especially when compared to any kind of foil. after you complete the dragon, you can use a nicer paper. if you mess up--no problem, scrap it, tape another four pieces together, and try again. one can certainly do the same with four pieces of japanese foil, but one may not have one of the same color on hand the way you would with kami.
gift wrap and kraft are alternatives, the problem being those are highly heterogeneous products. most gift wrapping paper and kraft i've tried is very floppy, which can get annoying, especially if your starting square was large. it can also be difficult to cut a perfect square, which may again annoy those are obsessive-compulsive/meticulous.
i will dissent with adam and say that cecilia's ancient dragon from kraft is gorgeous. one could argue that it would look even better with another medium, and i wouldn' t necessarily disagree. regardless.