design problems

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design problems

Postby jamester055 » July 19th, 2014, 12:55 am

hello everybody, i am new to designing and was wondering how people design origami. Just how do people use circle packing, and box pleating to make origami models. can you explain it to me. Just kidding :D I know you guys dont like those people. so any way,I have read origami design secrets and have come up with some pretty good crease patterns, such as my scorpion, it has circles rivers and everything, but is handrawn, it is not like those perfect crease patterns you would get on tree maker. know when i take a piece of paper to try and fold the model, i get lost. Where are all the guide lines? at what angles do i fold at that connect all my circles and get the right proportions. Is there a way robert langs program uses to find them all. or have i missed a part in one of odc chapters?
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Re: design problems

Postby Baltorigamist » July 19th, 2014, 4:23 pm

Firstly, I think this topic belongs in General Origami Talk.

Secondly, it's really hard to help you without knowing the specific problem you're having. Is it reference points or something bigger?
It would also help to see one of your CPs as an example so we can tell where you may be going wrong. I assume you understand the basic principle of design--that each flap in the base takes up a certain amount of paper.

Ideally, with a circle-packed model, you find the reference points for the center of each circle and connect them using valley creases. (These are called the axial creases, and they lie along the model's line of symmetry, or LOS.) Then you figure out which type of molecule (rabbit-ear, gusset, or arrow) you need to fill each of the resulting polygons. (Those are the ridge creases.) If this is your problem, I suggest you reread those chapters of ODS, but I can paraphrase them for you:
Everything depends on the lengths of the flaps and the width of any rivers between them. It may help to sketch out the circles using a compass and use those to find the distances. Then make a crease perpendicular to the axial creases at the border of the circle, and continue that all the way around (these will be the hinge creases for that flap). The place where the hinge creases intersect will determine what kind of molecule you need: if two adjacent sets do not meet at the same point, connect the intersections and make a gusset molecule (this only works for quadrilaterals). I'm a little rusty on arrow molecules, as I don't have my copy of the book on hand, but triangles can be filled with simple rabbit-ear molecules. Once you fill those polygons correctly, the model should work out if you have an accurate packing.


As for box-pleating, it's essentially the same idea as circle packing, except that you use squares and rectangles instead of circles, and that the flaps and rivers are confined to integer length. I suggest you experiment a little with simpler trees and packings before you try to design an entire model with BP, as it can be pretty confusing in the beginning. Just always remember that, in general, the rivers must always bend at right angles, and so they'll take up more space than it seems like they should. When this happens, there are Pythagorean stretches (also covered in ODS) that can be used to make the design more efficient. I can help you with those as well.

But as I said before, seeing your crease pattern would help me (and the rest of us) to understand what mistake you might be making.
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Re: design problems

Postby jamester055 » August 26th, 2015, 10:19 am

thnx i just got ods
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Re: design problems

Postby Kundalini » September 14th, 2015, 1:35 pm

If the crease pattern is right I think the secuence of folding is your problem and also mine because i am new in designing.

I have discovered that a good secuence of folding it depend of the understanding of your figure and foldings.

To try to undersand i draw them with differents colors so i know where they will be in the final shape. I fold all the lines later i colapse using the most important valleys and mountains.
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Re: design problems

Postby MangaArtist16 » February 10th, 2016, 2:05 am

I am new to designing origami models and am curious on where to start.

Could anyone give me some tips or advice on where to start?
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Re: design problems

Postby Baltorigamist » February 10th, 2016, 7:14 pm

One of the concepts covered in the aforementioned ODS is that of circle/river packing. In short, every flap in the model (or base) takes up a certain amount of paper that can be represented by a circle. One technique is to lay out proportional circles and try to get all their centers to fit inside a square. The resulting coordinates of the centers are the reference points for your base, and the space between them can be filled by molecules--which are really difficult to explain in words; that's where the book comes in.
There's an extension of circle/river packing called box-pleating, which I use; you might have heard of it. Essentially, circles are replaced by squares, which makes the reference points a lot easier to find since they lie on a grid.

Those are just the basics. As mentioned, ODS is the best resource for learning how to design.
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Re: design problems

Postby MangaArtist16 » February 13th, 2016, 7:33 pm

Okay.

So... I can use circle-packing or box-pleating to make designs?

That sounds.... kinda hard, actually.
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Re: design problems

Postby FlareglooM » February 14th, 2016, 2:47 pm

It's quite a read, but I hope this helps.

You can use circle-packing and box-pleating to make designs but it's not the only way to go.
Let me explain. For me there are actually three ways to designs:
- Design first
- Fold first
- Combination of the previous two.

Some people exist that can draw up a crease pattern, fold it. If it doesn't look okay they will draw up a new pattern, if it is okay, there you go a new design. For me this is the first category.
Then you have the people that start with folding and rely on a vast experience of folding to achieve what they want. This is the second category.
The third is a combination of both, they draw up a pattern to see if it works. If it doesn't work they apply folds to make changes. Unfold the model, redraw the crease pattern. See where it can be improved again. Fold again. Keep repeating until satisfied.

The first category is really rare in my opinion and it's usually the third one you will end up with if you start with drawing up a pattern and then folding it.
The second one is stand alone. There are some great designers that just fold, they don't care about all of the mathematics that can be applied or anything like that.

So where should you start designing? That depends entirely on the person that is designing.
I would advise to at least know some fundamentals on the following things:
- How does one create a flap? (a nice talk by Robert Lang about this can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYKcOFQCeno)
- What is an origami base?
What fundamental bases exist? (Kite-Base, Fish-Base, Bird-Base, Frog-Base, Windmill-Base etc). How can I utilize them to create a subject I want to create?
- How does my pattern change when I apply this fold here, and this fold there?
- How would I split a flap into multiple flaps? This is called "Point Splitting".
- How can I add some extra paper to a part of my design so that I can create more details? This is called "Grafting".
- I have this nice folded shape, how can I incorporate this in my model? You can graft this part on your model for example. A technique that will come up here as well is "Tiling".

These are just some techniques to build upon something that already exists.
For example: I want to create a bird. It has one head, two wings, two legs and a tail. For that one would need: 6 flaps of various sizes. But you don't care about the legs, so that leaves us 4 flaps. Do we know of a four flap base?
Yes the Bird-Base. (it isn't called that for nothing :), it's actually 4 big flaps and 1 little flap, but it comes the most close). So we would start with that and we start folding and apply techniques and knowledge we have. For example the head of some birds is a bit smaller, so would need to shorten one of the "big flaps". We could try to split it to create a beak with a top and bottom part. Thus we try to apply techniques for splitting up points. Now we have a beak. Up next we might want to make the wings a bit bigger and add some more detail on the tail. (the other three flaps). How would one add extra paper to this? Add a graft, hence the grafting tecchnique mentioned before. Eventually with enough playing around will get something you will like.

At this point you are building upon a part that you know, just from folding experience, and you experience some new things. If you would go directly to circle-packing, or box pleating you will get into fairly unknown territory, but it is not impossible. You will come into contact with some of the following techniques:
- Circle Packing - I need 6 flaps. Since every flap can be represented by a circle, how would I pack them in my square?
- Circle-River Packing- A more general approach on Circle-Packing, with the addition of rivers. For example when you pack circles they closely connect to each other. But a human really doesn't consists of 4 closely connected flaps. We have a torso, which we can represent with a river. It's basically answering the question how can I separate these flaps with a distance X?

In both of the above techniques one would usually create a stick figure, with a length for each stick and then you try to map that stick figure to points on your paper. There are some ways for that, but that would put a lot of more text here, which I'm not gonna do.(there are books for that and some info on the internet)

The biggest drawback of the above methods is that they are really exact. You will get problems like: How should I fold this 78.4423434 degree angle. That's why usually people use techniques that derive from the above. The theory is exactly the same, but we use approximations instead, think of:

- Box Pleating - When using this technique you are restricting yourself to 45 and 90 degrees angles in your crease pattern. Flaps usually are represented by squares, but also by rectangles (a flap can consume more paper). A river is represented by a rectangular piece of paper, that can change direction. (for example an L shape is a river with a 90 degree angle change).
- Hex Pleating - Restriction to 30,60 and 90 degree angle. Crease patterns usually consist of Hexagons and Triangles or other shapes you can create with 30,60 and 90 degree angles. Rivers are a bit trickier here, but the general idea is the same.
- 22.5 Degree design - Not sure if there is an exact name for this. But usually angles are restricted to 22.5, 45 and 90 degree angles. Think of Fish-Base, Frog-Base and Bird-Base. Flaps look like Octagons, Squares and everything you can create from the before mentiond angles. These are alle bases that fall into this category.
- 11.25 Degree design - Similair to the 22.5 Degree design, but will also have degrees that are halve of 22.5.
- Mixed Pleating - Combining techniques with each other. For example one could combine box pleating with 22.5 degree design.

People can even go crazy with pentagons, dodecagons and other polygons, but the main idea is that approximations to a circle are being used. Nothing more, nothing less.

You will find quite some information about almost anything mentioned above in books or the internet, with a really big part in ODS.

I hope this gives a quick and brief overview what you can do, but the most important thing is to find the way you are most comfortable with, since there is no "BEST" way to design.
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Re: design problems

Postby Augustus Agamemnon » February 14th, 2016, 3:07 pm

Wow... I wanted to comment on this thread, but I think that everyone said everything about it. Anyway there is only one thing that no one else said about: while designing your origami, don't give up. I know it's a bit strange but you'll understand when you actually do it. You have to keep trying to end up with a design that suits you best.
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Re: design problems

Postby MangaArtist16 » February 16th, 2016, 1:05 pm

Well, I don't know if I can make crease patterns. They seem kind of hard to make, despite being a bunch of lines that form a finished model.

I'll take some more time to "study" up on these different methods before I try to design something.
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Re: design problems

Postby MangaArtist16 » February 16th, 2016, 7:51 pm

Well, I tried making a dragon.

...at least I think I did.

I don't know what I was folding. I started with a bird base and went on from there.

It looks like a large bird... or dragon. Something with wings.

But it kinda fell apart near the end, as it stands on it's "feet".... which are just one conjoined fold.
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Re: design problems

Postby MangaArtist16 » February 17th, 2016, 3:44 am

Sorry for the bad lighting/quality... but here it is.
My first attempt at designing a model (by doodling).

http://sta.sh/01rurbk25h81

http://sta.sh/0nwbajwqh0b

Like I said, I have no idea what this thing even is.
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Re: design problems

Postby Baltorigamist » February 17th, 2016, 3:02 pm

^ You'll want to watch double-posting. There's an edit feature which you can use to achieve the same effect.
And that model is pretty good for a first attempt. (:
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Re: design problems

Postby yagowe » February 17th, 2016, 8:23 pm

In addition to FlareglooM's excellent suggestions above, I would also recommend folding a lot of other peoples' designs. Pay attention to the folding sequences and what results they produce. The more experience you have with following and understanding diagrams, the easier it is to apply certain techniques to your own models.

For example, in your dragon you mention that you're not happy with the feet. I can't tell from the pictures whether this will work with your design specifically, but in a lot of models with the same issue legs can be created by a combination of crimps and swivel folds (you'll see this a lot in Montroll's models).

Even when you're just doodling and aren't working on anything specific, having more processes in your folding tool kit will increase your odds of a doodle turning into something useful.
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Re: design problems

Postby MangaArtist16 » February 19th, 2016, 3:13 am

Thank you. :)

I think I'll try to fold more often so I can get better at understanding how the folds all work together.
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