I have a disturbing question

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TootyFruty
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I have a disturbing question

Post by TootyFruty »

Does anyone here notice just as me that there are complicated complex models that dont really pay off? Or not justify themselves?
Let me explain. For example kamiya's unicorn in relation to diaz unicorn at "origami for interpreters" kamiya is almost twiced amount of steps than diaz's and hell more complicated than diaz. And the result? Isnt much higher league or better or prettier than romans. Am i correct at thinking that kamiya sometimes and maybe other complexers too forcing the complexity of models just to make them complex on purpose? Am i missing something? Another example is his mammoth compared to diaz's elephant or the kirin or much more. I agree that not every model is like this like ancient dragon . wizard etc... But even the ancient dragon. It feels like it could have reached to same appearance and looks by way lesser steps and complexity.
Is anyone noticing it as well?
Am i missing something? Please explain
Thanks
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Merlyngami
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Re: I have a disturbing question

Post by Merlyngami »

I agree that Satoshi kamiya often seems to overcomplicate his models. I don't think he tries to over complicate, maybe it's just the way he likes to fold?
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marckrsh
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Re: I have a disturbing question

Post by marckrsh »

There are bad and good models for both simple and complex approaches. Roman Diaz certainly gets a lot of mileage out of his direct approach. I find a certain elegance in the works of Satoshi Kamiya as well. He is sort of like a John Coltrane of origami. He might use a lot of folds, but there is a clear logic to them, and there is an excellent flow to his sequences. His designs tend to have a nice balance to them (nice distribution of layers), and his folded examples are excellent. As an example of "over-complicating" there are far worse offenders. That seems to be Kamiya's style, and he does it well.
kentookura
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Re: I have a disturbing question

Post by kentookura »

I don't think that esigners like Kamiya fold complex models just for the sake of them being complex. He explaned in one of his books, that a designer sometimes chooses a subject because a part of it is interesting. In the unicorn the focus of the model is the mane. So, perhaps you shouldn't think of designers as choosing to "make a complex model", but more along the lines of, and I quote "Unicorns in picture books are usually wiht a curled mane and tail. I tried this with this model, folding them with flaps", which might result in high complexity. A similar idea appears in his tree frog, where a highly irregular reference point emerged from him just folding the toes of different length.
Additionally, Kamiya has said that he doesn't design with a folding sequence in mind, so when he actually does diagram something, the amount of steps required to express what Kamiya just does intuitively might be very high.
I think that other designers who produce extremely complex CPs, like Imai Kota perhaps have a different Mindset when it comes to design. I think that Imai designs because of the challenge of creating a realistic bug with as much detail as possible, rather than finding an elegant balanced solution. Personally, this approach has its artistic merits as well.
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origami_8
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Re: I have a disturbing question

Post by origami_8 »

There's also two more things to take into consideration. First, the models in Works of Satoshi Kamiya are already pretty old. Who knows how he would design the same subjects nowadays, probably different. Origami design techniques have evolved quite a lot in the last few years.
Second, more steps doesn't necessarily mean more complex. Satoshi Kamiya put a lot of effort in making very clear diagrams, even if it means using more steps.
And then every Origami designer has his own way of creating things. Sure when it comes to simpler models there is a lot of independent discovery (e.g. Octopus from blintzed birdbase), but the more complex it gets the more unique the approaches everyone takes. So comparing Kamiya's models to Roman Diaz's is kind of unfair.
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Kundalini
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Re: I have a disturbing question

Post by Kundalini »

The designing process is hard and you can create something without thinking in the folding secuence.

I think satoshi doesn't elaborate the folding secuence or at least he doesn't put more energy in that part. His style is to do a lot of creases and colapse the whole figure make me think his design are oriented in the result.

On the other hand Diaz's models are not so complicated to fold because he is thinking in the folding secuence or he works to improve the secuence once he finish a particular model.

Design required time and sometimes you can spend less time forgeting the folding secuence.
Augustus Agamemnon
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Re: I have a disturbing question

Post by Augustus Agamemnon »

I think that Satoshi has his own way of designing models, and not all artist think or do in the same way. They all think differently and so they all have their own way of folding. In Satoshi's case, he's just folding differently from others, I mean more complex than other artists.
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