Selling origami--legal or no?

[andssl]

I believe that the great problem is not selling individual models, but the use of origami in big things like advertisement. Someday I saw here in Brazil an HP advertisement that uses origami fishes. And If does anyone use a model to compose an advertisement without prior authorization of the author?

I believe now that the question gains a new focus, Origami solely does not provide money, but its use in other things can do money.

[HankSimon]

I think that you are missing something, because a bit of common sense left the building quite a while ago... However, I am here.

First, to the point of Dave Brill eating little children, please do not discount those of us who believe in moderation in population control.

Second, I agree that this post should continue. Even though it is going no where, it is doing it quickly and in an entertaining spiral, with minimal disrespect and abuse... I don't think it has yet devolved into a flame war... but here comes some fuel.

Third, I agree with Jared, but need to add a point. When you break a contract, you may be the main one to suffer the consequences. However, if you upset an Origami designer (not you specifically), who decides to stop publishing designs, then the community will suffer, and you may consider the consequences to be minor.

Plus, it is one thing to break a contract. There is additional emotional damage when you steal credit, good name, and reputation from someone, by using their work without credit. Making a dollar is just adding insult to injury.

Although the tangible point is selling someone else's work, the subtext is disrespect and a lack of appreciation for a designer's ideas, creativity, and work to bring it to fruition.

I know everyone on this Forum has a great respect and appreciation for the designers. We may pull their legs, or one of their flaps, but never with any disrespect intended.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't share our admiration and appreciation. Happily, I believe that those who would insult or don't care, constitute only a tiny minority. However, even one mosquito bite can cause annoyance and pain.

I have no good suggestions how to eliminate those few mosquitoes and cockroaches of the world, who prey on Origami.

Perhaps, when you discover them, then consider, may we should...

Eat his children !

- Hank Simon

[dinogami]

There is no eliminating them -- in any field or endeavor, there will be individuals that feel fully justified in putting financial gain above ethics...or anything else for that matter. The real trick is to not let these few individuals ruin things for everyone else -- don't sit back and do nothing when they cross the line.

[garrasdecaiman]

I believe selling other peoples work on a large scale should not be done, although if you only charge the craftsmanship and clearly state that the model was designed by mr or ms so and so you should be able to sell the models.
I have sold models by various authors under these circumstances, if I have just made a model which someone else wants whoever that person may be, and I do not need it for something spescific ( for example unfolding it to check the crease pattern etc.) I will give it away free of charge and everything.
But if someone falls in love with a model that I have no intention of making anytime soon and that detracts me from my own interests in origami I will charge the money for the time I will have to spend making it without the thorough enjoyment.
In these cases I treat the model as a folding commision, in this way I have sold some of mr langs insects and fish and an ancient dragon.
I do not do this to profit from it but I believe it is fair that I get some retribution from the person who wants me to make a figure which is not in my plans to make soon.
Althoug you may find this practice akin to profiteering I do not since I believe that I at the very minimum should buy hard copies of the works I truly enjoy and these little sides of income have helped me buy more books and paper so I can continue my quest to become a real origami designer, and gift this community some original work back.
In this state of mind I would not like somebody selling a model of mine to make a tv commercial but I would not mind if they sold their folding effort at a reasonable price to an end consummer, that way you can end with a good piece to give to whoever wants it and you can go out and buy yourself some good paper or methyl-cellulose or a pane of nice glass to continue folding upon.

After all this art is still an art and you can´t become better without practicing so the people who sell cranes for 5 dollars will never be able to make a half decent "insects 2" scorpion, why?
because no one will pay you to become better, or to keep at it, people will pay for a finished work of good quality, and to fold a good quality model you will have to keep inside your boundries, squashed first, second, third, fourth trials are worthless to everybody but your knowledge, and you know what, a real profiteer does not have money to waste building his craft to a good ancient dragon, they can sell simple cranes and be done with it.

So if you sell a little bit is fine if you make huge bucks you should at the very least give some to the creator, if not well this community will all turn into cranky yoshizawas fighting over a purloined pig.
As mister brill says there is not so much money in origami yet, but someday there might be, and if your models are being abused you will wish that some of the recognition goes to you.
X

[dinogami]

I wonder if all the people here who believe that it's acceptable to sell for profit models invented by other people (with or without giving credit to the originator) also believe it is acceptable to pass around freely scans of various origami books? And conversely, if all the people who think that passing around digital scans of others' books is unethical also think that selling models sans permission is unethical? If there are any people who are one way on the first issue but the other way on the second, I'm interested to know your reasoning on the issue.

[conundrumachinist]

I think for me far more important than any legal or ethical "standards" is to respect the views of the designer. So before selling someone else's design try and contact the designer. If he/she doesn't reply or says no then don't proceed.

I also believe owning the book in which the design is published in does not give anyone the right to sell designs from that book for a profit.

Emailing a simple request is going to take less time than folding the model so I don't see why there is any issue.

[bethnor]

After all this art is still an art and you can´t become better without practicing so the people who sell cranes for 5 dollars will never be able to make a half decent "insects 2" scorpion, why?
because no one will pay you to become better, or to keep at it, people will pay for a finished work of good quality

perhaps it's a language thing, but this has to be one of the silliest arguments i've seen yet in this thread. like any other art, you practice to get better--not because there is some kind of financial incentive. the vast, vast majority of people who practice any art--painting, origami, music--will not be talented enough to be reimbursed on a regular basis for their craft.

the point of mentioning selling traditional origami is, some people here seem hell-bent on selling origami, and it frankly appears as if they would rather chew off their own arms and legs rather than ask a creator for permission. you can fold a crane and sell it for whatever AND still go home and fold whatever you like.

i still haven't heard a single reason why people won't ask before selling. here: i will get down and promise on my hands and knees, the worst thing the creator will say is no. and, amazingly enough, life will go on. hard to believe, right?

[steingar]

I wonder if all the people here who believe that it's acceptable to sell for profit models invented by other people (with or without giving credit to the originator) also believe it is acceptable to pass around freely scans of various origami books? And conversely, if all the people who think that passing around digital scans of others' books is unethical also think that selling models sans permission is unethical? If there are any people who are one way on the first issue but the other way on the second, I'm interested to know your reasoning on the issue.

Apples and oranges. The original question posed is whether or not it is legal to sell origami models designed by others. The overriding answer is yes, its legal (no one has yet come up with either statute or precedent to say otherwise) but no, it isn't very ethical, at least according to many here, as well as most of the designers I personally know. Dave Brill and I actually had a long chat about this very topic over tea.

In the case of copying and passing out copyrighted material, the answer is definitely not legal unless you fit into one of the stipulations set forth by Congress (in the US).

[garrasdecaiman]

Making a profit from someone elses work is usually unethical although the line is not as clear as black and white.
Furthermore copying and sharing a book is dubious in nature, where does the limit lie between lending your book out, which has been attacked in the contemporary media as illegal, and selling a physical book.
And on eaven grayer zones of legality is photodiagrams, crease patterns from diagrammed models, and eaven showing pictures of them in sites like flickr etc.
This behaviour raises the same questions, how much do you own the model you folded from another designer, does owning the book give you expressed rights to photograph and reproduce the works?
Does having the knowledge to solve a crease pattern give you the right to show online how it is folded?
Does having a book give you the right to modify and pass as your own modification a model?
Also I would like to ask, do you think mr lang would be interested if I sent an email asking if I can sell one copy of his cockroach for 50 mexican pesos?

And I´m sorry if I did not make myself clear bethnor but it is my point to show that people hellbent on selling origami will do it regardless of approval, and that if you are so hellbent on money than the craft is just a secondary step in your profiteering.

Also I would like to ask you something, in the city where I live there is a man who sells fusé´s boxes, I have no respect for him or the way that he profiteers from other people´s work without any decency or love of the art form, what should I do.
X

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm copyrighting the word "eaven." Garrasdecaiman owes me $3000.

[Razzmatazz]

...raises the same questions, how much do you own the model you folded from another designer, does owning the book give you expressed rights to photograph and reproduce the works?
Does having the knowledge to solve a crease pattern give you the right to show online how it is folded?
Does having a book give you the right to modify and pass as your own modification a model?...

Exactly. Because your effort into making this model and buying the materials. I believe it is not as unethical as everyone pretty much is suggesting.

This is not like someone stealing someone's invention, we are not saying this is our design, we are making this from our own paper. What the people copyrighted was the diagrams, not the piece of paper all folded into a swan, or rose, or dragon. [/u]

[bethnor]

Exactly. Because your effort into making this model and buying the materials. I believe it is not as unethical as everyone pretty much is suggesting.

ethics aside, why can't you ask the creator?

is there a chastity belt latched around your mouth or something?

will you get an electric shock?

is there someone with their finger on the bomb who will throw the switch if you do?

and if they say no, what's the big deal? why MUST you sell the origami?

[Razzmatazz]

:S Answer the ethics about it and then answer this. Why should someone get to decide whether you can sell something you crafted?

[insaneorigami]

This should theoretically end the topic.

Only sell your own designs. If you sell other artist's designs, get their permission.

It's as easy as that, guys. As easy as that.

Hope I don't get attacked for saying this.

[conundrumachinist]

:S Answer the ethics about it and then answer this. Why should someone get to decide whether you can sell something you crafted?

Well he should get to decide because you might have crafted it but he designed it.

Ok let's say my time is worth $10 per hour. This includes designing, diagramming,and actual folding.I decide to fold a model (say Eric Joisel's rat) to sell and each model takes me an hour to fold. Going by your argument I should be paid $10 per hour and for my time in addition to the material cost of the paper.

But what about Eric Joisel's time? The hours he spends designing the model, the countless sheets of paper used to trial fold and the hours spent diagramming the model so that you could fold it in the first place. This could easily go into hundreds or even thousands of dollars even if you pay him at the same $10 per hour.You are not compensating him for that.Is it ethical?

Remember that if he had not designed or diagrammed the model, you would have nothing to fold and sell in the first place.