Selling origami--legal or no?

[bethnor]

:S Answer the ethics about it and then answer this. Why should someone get to decide whether you can sell something you crafted?

now that's awful circuitous.

the ethics of the matter has gone on for pages and page and pages and pages and pages (and any time you think it's done, there's probably one more page) on this forum, and probably on origami-L before this site came to fruition. do you really need me to reiterate it?

regardless, if we don't respect a designer's wishes on the matter, that has a real, measurable consequence: they won't release diagrams. i would think that anyone who has been on this forum for any amount of time should know that by now, thanks to the phu tran debacle.

you can certainly (and i guess you would) take the chris route and say the designer is being a petulant child. okay, so be it, but they're a petulant child with the diagrams that now neither you or i can possess, which just hurts the community as a whole.

a little courtesy is more than worth it to keep the diagrams flowing, imho, so i--again--don't see why it's such a big deal to talk to the creators. if they were asking us to sacrifice our firstborn along with the blood of a black sheep on the runestones atop caer darrow underneath a full moon, that would be one thing, but they're just asking you to respect their intellectual property.

why is the selling of designs not yours sooooooooo vital to you, razzmatazz (your circumferential answers suggest that if you were to stop or ask permission, your very life would collapse in on itself), that you would jeopardize future diagrams for those of us who want them? i myself just have a simple goal: i want diagrams.

[Razzmatazz]

@conundrumachinist

If your time and material is worth $10 then sell it for that. I have said previously to sell for labour and materials. Plus, if I were to sell, say a kawasaki rose; I'd sell it for about 2-$3 each rose and for a stem or leaf an extra 50 cents. That for paper and labour.


@Bethnor

As I've said before. It's their design, they've copyrighted the diagrams but not the finished piece. I'm sorry I will just deny everything you have to say because I am a stubborn teenager, but I have not said anything against asking the creator.

I have made it clear that I am just spewing ideas supporting how you can get away without asking, because obviously we have settled on the first page of the thread that you should ask. Obviously I would ask. I'm not so stuck up and cocky as my posts have sounded.

I am sorry if I have offended you at all, Bethnor, I have the utmost respect for you. You drive some good responses and have good points to this debate.

[andssl]

Excuse me all, but the discussions here will turn a completely non sense. This topic is about SELLING ORIGAMI IS LEGAL?

The response: SELLING ORIGAMI IS LEGAL IN THREE SITUATIONS ONLY:

A) WHEN YOU SELL A TRADITIONAL MODEL;

B) WHEN YOU SELL YOUR OWN MODEL;

C) WHEN YOU SELL A MODEL THAT IS NOT YOURS, BUT WITH PRIOR CONSENT OF AUTHOR.

This is a legal response, ok? If it is petulant, immoral, unethical, this is not a matter of law, but of polices to change this law.

The problem is that in the world of art people sell copies of famous works and think that there is no problem in this. Yes, there is no problem if the autor is dead and there is a period over 70 years after his/her death.

[conundrumachinist]

@conundrumachinist

If your time and material is worth $10 then sell it for that. I have said previously to sell for labour and materials. Plus, if I were to sell, say a kawasaki rose; I'd sell it for about 2-$3 each rose and for a stem or leaf an extra 50 cents. That for paper and labour.

You've missed my point completely.My question was how are you going to compensate the designer's time and effort in creating the model and diagramming it?

[garrasdecaiman]

it is the same as covering a song of a known author in a wedding, should you get express permission from the author if it is only for the wedding in which you were paid to play? that is one thing
if you cover their song in an album and sell it with huge album numbers, you definetly should.
as bethnor said "I want more diagrams" yes I want them too, but if something like petty change is going to keep designers from releasing their models it will be so, I am sorry about phu trans reaction but it is the same as when brian chan shows his models in meetings with small crease patterns, it is strange for an experienced folder to think that no one has the ability or willingness to reproduce the whole model, and sometimes more than that for example with mister satoshi´s pheonix, I have stumbled upon full step by step illegal diagrams of this work (I do not have them but know they exist).
is it bad that they exist, well not if he want´s recognition from his work or praise, but if he wishes that the model only belong to him it is.
as for yoshizawa I read in a book that he had some beutiful and impressive technically exiting models in his own private showroom, which he never showed to the world, my question is "do they exist?" exist as are they real,
they might be, to me they are not, it does not matter if you make the very best for yourself to anyone but yourself.

so I believe we should use ethics as we will, and push them as we may, until the belt snaps we shall not know.
I have a new scoop which I´d like to rat out to all in the forum.
this
http://www.amazon.com/Origami-Colour-Zü ... 9&sr=8-5
has some obviously non traditional models as you can see from the devil mask of mr kasahara does the author have permission to print these
and I have found these books here in mexico which if you care to look at have pirated (and I mean pirated as the owners name does not appear in any place) models from mr lang and mr montroll
http://www.colinasc.com/papiroflexia.html

I am currently on vacation but I can get some proof of piracy (exept if mister montroll has allowed them to use his models without his name) when I get home
Now that is some troll food!
X

[Razzmatazz]

You've missed my point completely.My question was how are you going to compensate the designer's time and effort in creating the model and diagramming it?

I will respect their wishes and not sell the model for an inflated price but for a price that is valued on labour and material costs.

[steingar]

regardless, if we don't respect a designer's wishes on the matter, that has a real, measurable consequence: they won't release diagrams. i would think that anyone who has been on this forum for any amount of time should know that by now, thanks to the phu tran debacle.

Unlikely. One of the ways a folder promotes themselves the Origami community is by writing books and releasing diagrams. It is by no means the only way, but it is a big one. No diagrams, nobody knows about your work and you don't get famous. Artists must promote themselves. Its part of the deal.

Bad side effect, now you loose control of your designs. Sorry, goes with the territory. If you really can't stand the thought don't release diagrams. But you'll have a much harder time gaining that notoriety. If that doesn't matter to you, fine.

The good news is we're entering a new phase of origami. Much of the more technically complex work can easily be seen as one-off designs, true art as opposed to craft, not meant to be duplicated. That should obviate some of the discussions that go on here.

[bethnor]

No diagrams, nobody knows about your work and you don't get famous.

except, that's not true. at all. one of the most commercially successful origami artists, joseph wu, has diagrammed very little of his work. takashi hojo is also very well known, but probably has only 4-5 diagrams in print. i can remember ogling a lot of his work 9-10 years ago, and most of it is not diagrammed. sipho mabona is also very commercially successful, but, as far as i know, maybe only has 3-4 diagrams.

the vast vast majority of western "up and comers," are also undiagrammed. seth friedman and jason ku coming to mind (to my knowledge, only 2 of seth's models have been diagrammed). brian chan has a book forthcoming, but that's it, as far as i know.

oddly enough, the more proliferative diagramming artists, montroll and sirgo, are not that popular 'round these parts.

[Razzmatazz]

@Bethnor

A lot of those people you mentioned have other ways of "advertising" their origami. Wu, especially; and literally. I believe he has some dollar bill models of his in adds about saving money or something? Can anyone confirm this? That was the first time I've heard of him, then I folded the eastern dragon of his.

[bethnor]

joseph wu is well known in origami primarily because his website was really the first, most thorough "origami hub."

we can distort it, but the truth of the matter is, when you have a nice model, that is what generates interest in diagrams--not the other way 'round. kamiya has lots of notoriety because of the final appearance of his models. that's like saying he wasn't famous until "works of satoshi kamiya" was published--which is not true, in the slightest. it's precisely when a noobie stumbles on a pic of the ancient dragon or wizard that makes them go, "THAT'S SO COOL!" and then they go looking for the diagrams. not the other way round.

especially with flickr and other photo upload sites, a well-folded model is all that is necessary to generate interest in a given author. kamiya ryo, for instance, has gained a lot of notice for his rendition of the marchosias and housemaid; but there are no diagrams. the notoriety comes from the appearance of the marchosias and house maid; how impressive and complex they seem, not because there are diagrams for it. that is what generates interest in diagrams.

[bethnor]

I will respect their wishes and not sell the model for an inflated price but for a price that is valued on labour and material costs.

razzmatazz--now you're just twisting it. they didn't say you could sell origami for a price valued on labour and material costs. they flat out asked you not to do it. nobody can stop you if that's what you're gonna do, but don't then turn around and say you're still respecting their wishes.

again, i don't understand why you won't ask. i went to OUSA in 2008. there was a stall that sold earrings of lafosse and montroll models in silver. i'm sure permission was asked, and i wouldn't be surprised at all if lafosse and montroll didn't even get a cut. so what's the big deal?

[origamimasterjared]

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

[Razzmatazz]

...they didn't say you could sell origami for a price valued on labour and material costs...

I don't believe that is their decision. It's my paper and my labour. I'm not selling for their design.

PLUS READ THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said I would not ask the permission of the designer. I have ALREADY STATED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many exclamation marks because I think I have to highlight this because I have already stated before. Either you have forgotten or you ignore the last half of my comments. I am JUST STATING OTHER ways of getting around this.

And as I said before the solution is to ask the designer and it was "already solved in the first page of the thread" Which was what I ALREADY said.

Thank you.

[conundrumachinist]

I don't believe that is their decision. It's my paper and my labour. I'm not selling for their design.

The logic of this statement is completely lost on me...

[Razzmatazz]

They copyrighted the diagrams not the model I made. So if I sell it for material costs and my sweat, then is it not fair?