Selling/Displaying Models You Did Not Design

[araknoid]

i just had some good wine.
bonarda.

girls and boys, let's stick together.
rules are good, and ultimatly may be subject to change.

but we getting to know each other - that may not come again, like the fire in the campsite night.

so.

let's keep attitudes and it's fun, let's discuss and it's fun, let's mix and create from each and everybody.

proposal: fold, fold, fold. imagine some exquisite corpse if you like, or a challenge, or a meeting, or something.

we are too precious. let's stick together.

and about morals and boring stuff... come on you want a real moral discussion?
is one fold a violation of sacred space?

but nevertheless, on my part i'll try to keep my pagan tongue calm, do the same you fiery brave origamists, let's join together and create.

no one hates no one.

and all the permutations. (backwards, reverse etc.)

no one hates one no.

stop society horrors: paper is waiting for us.

so thanks to the wine and next time i'll be sober promise ahahahah

[Jonnycakes]

Gee, let me quote you from another topic:

Thanks. I know how easy it is to get offended and to offend people online. I certainly do both of those often enough, usually not on purpose. Everyone, please remember that it is possible to explain your point of view without having to attack the other person's point of view. (And that reminder goes for me, too.)


You talk about respect - even better - you demand respect, yet you point out that the entire forum is ignorant and never pays attention to you. Smooth move. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it.

If Arkanoid's post was violating rule #2 by 'offending' one person, then you just offended the entire forum.

I'm not sure you understood Joseph Wu's quote. It is very easy to offend poeple online, even when you don't mean any harm at all. That has clearly happened numerous times in this topic. Adam, your assault on (flame) Joseph is a result of this kind of misinterpretation and was totally uncalled for. I have seen this kind of misunderstanding a lot (and have personally offended some people because of it) online, and because of it one must try very hard to be as clear as possible with their posts. Also, when reading others' posts, you must take them with a grain of salt: it is easy to be offended by someone else's words online, especially if you assume a defensive attitude.

Adam, your entire post can be attacked the same way that you attacked Joseph's posts: Joseph points out that nobody has even mentioned the law on copyrights of intellectual property-which he clearly posted near the beginning of this topic, and you say he isn't earning respect? You are the one who is being disrespectful with your thoughtless attacks.

There are a lot of people at fault in this topic, probably not the least of which is myself with this post, but that shouldn't stop people from posting what they think, and it should certainly not cause people to attack other people for what they think. Nobody is perfect, and if you wish to point that out, don't attack them about it. If you do, then you are not starting anything productive; rather, you will start a flame war which will snowball because of everybody reading everybody else's posts with a narrow mind and attacking them without thinking. If you are going to attack someone, at least think about it first.

Quentin, I don't quite understand this. I googled for Joseph Wu after reading your post but I didn't really see how he 'exposed origami to more people than anyone else in the world'. Perhaps you mixed him up with Yoshizawa? You're giving him credit for creating the origami community as it is now. And now he's the victim of 'all those people that he helped'? I never really noticed that he tried to 'spread the joy' of Origami - oh my, that probably sounded rather cheesy - around the world; In fact, he doesn't like diagramming, because "he doesn't have to do it".

Joseph Wu has a great origami site that has a wealth of information on it. For example, it has galleries of many artists' work and also pictures of models that will be taught at the coming OUSA convention. He also, by the way, has diagrams on his site.

Quite the opposite. Nobody should go. This is exactly what forums are for; discussing things. Not everyone has to agree, and there is no right or wrong side. Joe, however, doesn't seem to realise this and prefers to run away...

You are probably right. But it is for discussing things, not blindly attacking each other. There is definitely a difference-one has neither a right nor a wrong side, and one has two wrong sides. It is easy to cross the line into blind attacking. If someone thinks that their views are not being listened to and will not be in the future, it is natural that they will want to leave the discussion. I think this is the case with Joseph.

And a disclaimer: I am not sticking up for Joseph because he is an origami master, a generally good-natured person, or a very influential person in the origami community. In fact, I don't think I'm sticking up for him at all-he was at fault as well, but it is very easy to be on the defensive when people are not listening to or attacking your views. People are going to be offended, on accident or not, and sometimes it is easy to avoid. Sometimes it isn't. Either way, everyone should try their best to avoid it and understand people's posts for what they are truly meant to mean.

Ah, araknoid posted before I could Well, there is something to be said for just sticking together because of our common interest: folding. That is the primary purpose for the forum. But this topic is not about folding: it is about copyrights. And the law is fairly black and white about this-if you want to sell someone else's work, you need their permission. As a creator, it is easy to be anal about this and tell people they need to obey it, even with informally selling a model for $2. As an average folder, it is easy to feel oppressed and hate these laws. I think there needs to be a compromise on both ends for it to work.

[HankSimon]

Guys, I think it is time for my two cents. Joseph Wu, David Brill, Robert Lang and the other Grandmasters of Origami have done much to support Origami.

Joseph doesn't blow his own horn (despite what you see), but he has helped many folks online for the past 5 or 10 years... longer than some folks have been folding.

Also, remember that Origami is not a simple hobby for him and others - it is the way that they earn a living and put food on the table for their family. So, when you sell his work, it is almost like taking food out of his son's mouth.

However, there is an important issue that people on the O-List and the Origami Forum are usually silent about. When you use or post someone else's work in a way that they did not give permission for, then it can hurt their feelings, because it feels like you have stolen credit for their effort... and perhaps betrayed their trusting and giving approach to Origami.

While I agree that a good argument can be useful, and a flame war can be fun, this is not the place for either. This is a safe place for encouraging Origami and for people to learn, and gain support.

Think how easy it would be to destroy a newbie ... and to turn him away from Origami forever. I hope that you don't think that this Forum is the place for that.

However, there were three or four people in the past 10 years who were hurt and insulted, because people did not respect their wishes. So, they stopped participating and stopped giving. I was not involved, but I am sorry for that because they had a wonderful Origami style, now only available to their friends.

Now I don't think that Joseph is anywhere near that stage. I think that he was just frustrated that people didn't see his point of view ... And, when no one is listening - in the spirit intended - why keep talking...

My two cents ... maybe with a penny change,

- Hank Simon

[Adam]

I edited my post, based on what Jonnycakes said - to avoid a snowball effect. I may have overreacted, and I see why you see my post as an attack.

I know that he posted a link to his site about copyright and intellectual property; it's the first reply in this topic and is rather hard to miss. Point taken, but that doesn't mean that the discussion should end there.
However, how does posting that link earn him respect..?

I know that Joseph has a website with several links to other pages and a couple of diagrams ( mostly made by others ), but there are tons of such sites. I never meant to say that he didn't do anything for Origami, but what I meant is that there are many people who have done way more for this art : The creators of origami.com, or the creator of this forum, for example.

I had some serious doubts about whether I should post anything or not, but in the end this is a forum where everyone should be able to defend him/herself and post his or her own opinion. I suppose I should've pointed out my opinion in a different way, but alas, what's done is done.

Now I don't think that Joseph is anywhere near that stage. I think that he was just frustrated that people didn't see his point of view ... And, when no one is listening - in the spirit intended - why keep talking...

I understand why he's frustrated about it, but I think he should've tried a different approach, because what he said offended members that did nothing wrong. I agree with him when it comes to what this topic was originally about, and I do see his point of view...

[Jonnycakes]

However, how does posting that link earn him respect..?

Why does he need to earn respect by posting that link? Why should that earn him respect? He contributed to the topic and showed what the law says about selling others' intellectual property so that we would understand it.

Anyone can post a link about something, but if you do that (or post anything else for that matter) just to earn respect, you won't earn it. I think it's best not to think about earning respect; if your intentions are right and you post in a respectful, dignified, and constructive manner, that will earn you respect more than anything else. And I think Joseph, aside from this forum, has done more than enough in the field of origami to earn him a great deal of (well-"earned") respect.

I guess it comes down to this: if you don't have respect for others, they won't respect you since you are not being a respectable person if you are being disrespectful to others. If you want respect, respect others, regardless of the respect they give you.

Edit: haha, I just noticed that this topic is right next to the sticky about origami piracy-yet another heated discussion

[araknoid]

I guess it comes down to this: if you don't have respect for others, they won't respect you since you are not being a respectable person if you are being disrespectful to others. If you want respect, respect others, regardless of the respect they give you.

mmm. nice talk.
flame off.
but real world is kinda different than this sugar approach.
i think we must be painfully brave and pro-active.

[Adam]

Why does he need to earn respect by posting that link?

I thought that's what you meant by saying:

Joseph points out that nobody has even mentioned the law on copyrights of intellectual property-which he clearly posted near the beginning of this topic, and you say he isn't earning respect? You are the one who is being disrespectful with your thoughtless attacks.

I know he didn't post it just for respect, as that would make no sense in my opinion. I don't know Joseph's work as that of other artists, but I'm sure he's done enough to be admired by others. I, however, pretty much only 'know' him from reading his posts on the forums.

I guess it comes down to this: if you don't have respect for others, they won't respect you since you are not being a respectable person if you are being disrespectful to others. If you want respect, respect others, regardless of the respect they give you.

Hehe, did you try to use the word 'respect' as often as possible in those sentences? Seriously though, I completely agree. Reminds me of what Socrates and Seneca used to say..

[qtrollip]

I probably dont have to post this, but just to clarify what I meant about Joseph's influence on origami. (And please, even though my English is not a problem, it is not my native language and I sometimes cant find the best worde to describe what I mean).
Anyway, Joseph had a big hand in organising the PCOC 2007 in Vancouver, especially the gallery exhibition, which showcased many people's work from around the world.
He has also just done a whole play in Vancouver on "The life of paper", which was definitely aimed at promoting origami.
He has a good website, and (I think), is the main guy in the vancouver folding group.
To me, this shows him working towards exposing origami (both his own and other folders) to the world.
It may be because this is how he earns a living, but I'm sure he would not have to promote other people's work to earn that same living.
That's the way I see it, and I'm not pointing any fingers here, just to be clear!

[Adam]

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts Quentin. Like I said, I don't know Joseph too well, so I didn't know he organised exhibitions or things like that.

[Jonnycakes]

Hehe, did you try to use the word 'respect' as often as possible in those sentences?

Yep, you caught me

[qtrollip]

No harm done, Adam!
Now, as Araknoid said, "let's get back to the folding"!!

[Dave Brill]

Seems like Araknoid should keep drinking the Bonarda: his words are much more acceptable afterwards!

This has been distasteful and hurtful, not only to me, but also to other authors and creators. I deduce that, in Araknoid's eyes, all signatories to this post are "hatemongers":
viewtopic.php?p=34567&highlight=#34567

I take some comfort that Araknoid's outpourings may occasionally be fuelled by something other than his passion for origami…

Comments please, moderators:

Forum Rule 2. Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will lead to a warning or ban.

Let's return to the topic, " Selling models you did not design".

I'll try to give you my own perspective on this. I'm not in origami for the money, or to earn or to receive respect. I'm here because I love to fold, I'm fascinated and intrigued by the endless possibilities presented by the simple sheet of paper. I have earned money from origami activities, but it's not my job. Origami is a huge part of my life, it has given me immense opportunities, and has taken me places I would never have thought possible when I started folding more than 50 years ago. I've made countless wonderful friends in many parts of the world. I'm keen to share my work, and it's very flattering to me that other people enjoy something I've made.

But I don't like other people selling my work, or "receiving donations"…however you want to put it. I'd rather they give it away, with my compliments. PLEASE don't make money from my work, however small the amount.

I think "Respect" is the wrong word. "Politeness" and "Common Courtesy" is better maybe…

[Ondrej.Cibulka]

And if Joseph blames the whole forum to be deaf and disrespectful, because not everybody agrees with his ideas, it is okay?

He is maybe arrogant, but do not use such bad attacks to others. Everything must have degree (rate, size - I am not sure, what is prpper English word for it).

[araknoid]

Seems like Araknoid should keep drinking the Bonarda: his words are much more acceptable afterwards!

This has been distasteful and hurtful, not only to me, but also to other authors and creators. I deduce that, in Araknoid's eyes, all signatories to this post are "hatemongers":
viewtopic.php?p=34567&highlight=#34567

stretched deduction in my eyes. i may be wrong but i didn't see them treating me or other folders like i already said before.

I take some comfort that Araknoid's outpourings may occasionally be fuelled by something other than his passion for origami…

which would be? please do tell me i'm curious.

strange, my arguments always contain examples and references, but i never had the pleasure to see one of them discussed...
so the right way to deal with people here is like that, never speaking plainly and without facts? mmm, nice!

Comments please, moderators:

[rdrutel]

The problem I see is when others' personal principles must be followed by me. Providing definitions that others must follow, as has been clearly done by many in this thread, seems rather pointless. So many of you demand others to conform to the principles you set thinking this is the way it must be because I do it this way. What amazes me more is the surprise that follows when people express their lack of concern! How dare they not follow my principles or that is terrible so you need to apologize?!?! exempli gratis: Let me give you my book to read, but you have to read it backwards because that is how I read. Arrogance is followed when people demand something from others that others feel is unnecessary. So those others look at the demanders as arrogant because what gives them the authority to govern? (You see how arrogance just may begin from the demanders that don't think they are being arrogant?) Any time you demand someone to do something, ask youself by what authority are you asking. Also, keep in mind that it is quite possible no one else reads books backwards or no one cares to change their ways to what you deem superior.