Selling/Displaying Models You Did Not Design

[bethnor]

i have a suggestion.

perhaps all of these topics should be gathered together and sticky'ed. i've been mostly a lurker on these boards, and everytime this topic (or something similar) comes up, everyone becomes riled up and has the exact same conversation and things rather rapidly degenerate to personal insults, which doesn't seem productive. everyone has made up their mind on the matter and it doesn't seem like anyone is going to change anyone's else's opinions.

i'd rather another new arrival ask about help with the kawasaki rose.

[Ondrej.Cibulka]

rdrutel (and others), we have freedom of words, so everyone can say what they want, but with propriety or politeness - i.e. without offence and unmannered words. Use of such kind of communication needs apologize. No disccussion.

[TheRealChris]

first of all, I'm pretty pleased that exceptionally I'm not the bugger in discussion. so off under my wings brother Arkanoid, they'll keep you warm and secure

the reasons why I didn't join the discussion are these.

this is a discussion without end. you won't ever argue somebody into your point, and I mean everybody of you, especially those with extreme points of view.
in the moment Joseph insulted the hole gang of members, the discussion was lost ground for me. I understand his point of view but I don't like the way he's telling it nore his extreme point of view. but the way he lumped us all together tells us more about him than about us.
words like moral and respect (and even flame) are only empty words... I mean they are words without a real definable meaning. everything that is said, can be taken as kind as possible, but more than ever before I have the feeling, that people somehow like to feel insulted. instead of thinking "he might not have ment it in a bad way" they prefer thinking "if this stupid ar##hole wants a fight... he will get a fight". moral and respect can change if you only pass the borders of your nation, so how could anybody dare to judge using this words? I'm pretty sure Joseph doesn't have the right to do.
I'm pretty sure, Arkanoid is a nice guy. it might not have been nice what he said, but I put it in relation to a mood. he might just have been exploded in a way, because he doesn't likes the way Joseph accuses everybody to be a bad human. Arkanoid did not use vulgar words, so his entry was not really harsh... maybe a little bit too direct, but not really rude or harsh. maybe some people are only not used to hear the truth. with this I don't take his position (althouth I do in a lot of statements he did), it's just the same strange feeling about people and how they react sometimes.
the last point is the usage of "my work". in fact I wouldn't sell "your work", because I folded it. I used my talent, and my time and did use my paper to fold the model. it might have been your idea and your creation but it's definately my work. so why shouldn't I get paid for the time I spent of my life using my talent to fold that model? as long as I give credit to the creator of the model there is nothing wrong about. and now I will tell you something really really scary: If I make a exhibition of origami models and will put a sign to every model "spuink of Jang-Jong... folded by Christian" nobody will be offended, but it the moment I will sell it, everybody seems to cry out "thief". you see the difference? it's all about money. and thats the real point in this discussion... nothing about respect... nothing about moral... it's only money. Joseph is not worried about the missing of respect, because I do give him respect when I tell the people it's his creation. he's only worried that somebody made money with something he created. the same with Dave. he wrote

But I don't like other people selling my work, or "receiving donations"…however you want to put it. I'd rather they give it away, with my compliments. PLEASE don't make money from my work, however small the amount.

so where is the praised moral, respect or politeness? its only money we're talking about. I will be allowed to give his models for free, but I'm forbidden to sell them. and again the words "my work".
it would be a whole different thing if I would sell a model that Dave folded... then I would really sell his work.

Christian

[Jonnycakes]

The problem I see is when others' personal principles must be followed by me. Providing definitions that others must follow, as has been clearly done by many in this thread, seems rather pointless. So many of you demand others to conform to the principles you set thinking this is the way it must be because I do it this way. What amazes me more is the surprise that follows when people express their lack of concern! How dare they not follow my principles or that is terrible so you need to apologize?!?!

If it is the law that is telling you how to act, you don't have much of a choice. That is what this topic is coming down to, I think.

it's all about money. and thats the real point in this discussion... nothing about respect... nothing about moral... it's only money.

Well, the law is primarily concerned with money, or in fancier words, "commercial usage of intellectual property." So it certainly does come down to respect: are you going to respect someone else's work enough as to not break the law and sell it without their permission? Giving it away while stating the author does not carry the same kind of weight as selling it does.

I used my talent, and my time and did use my paper to fold the model. it might have been your idea and your creation but it's definately my work.

It is certainly your work. But it is the author of the design's work too. You may have bought the paper, cut it to size, and folded the model from a diagram (or CP, or maybe you even reverse-engineered it), but the author designed it. That means thinking about what you want to design, thinking about how you are going to design it, sketching out initial possibilities for the design, working those into something actually foldable, choosing paper, cutting it to size, folding the model, evaluating what's wrong with it, reworking it, going through the folding process again, and reworking and refolding it until it is acceptable. Then they created a diagram or CP for the model so that you could fold it (unless you reverse-engineered it), which is probably at least as time consuming, if not many many times more (in the case of a diagram) than what you did to fold it. It is primarily the author's work.

[rdrutel]

Lets start with Jonathan...I think you are wrong about the law. We do have a choice to abide or break laws. In fact, millions break the law by speeding to work each day. Since you do not have a choice, Jonathan, you must either abide or break laws everyday, which is it?

....maybe some people are only not used to hear the truth.

In this topic the arrows were tipped with truth and aimed high towards those on their own pedestals. I continue to concur with the RealChris method.

Use of such kind of communication needs apologize. No disccussion.

I find the above fascinating. So lets go to theRealChris method below

this is a discussion without end. you won't ever argue somebody into your point, and I mean everybody of you, especially those with extreme points of view.

Let's expand the above to Ondrej. Not only do you still appear to be commanding with your post, but also you, like others, have granted yourself with a figment of authority. No discussion is allowed? That is some power you have granted yourself with, especially since this is a medium that is defined by discussion. You accomplished nothing with your demand to apologize. I agreed with araknoid's decision and I am sure others as well. This way it didn't matter if you had never written anything in the first place. You may scold your child or tell your employees what to do, and there is where you can make a difference so stick to that. Perhaps, I suggest, I think, and maybe are all up to you to consider incorporating as means to convey your message without the authority.

[Joseph Wu]

First of all, I apologize to everyone for labelling everyone for the behaviour of a few. I did not intend to do so, but in the heat of the moment, I was careless in my writing. I'm sorry.

Second, yes, I am leaving. Here is why. I'll do my best not to be arrogant, but I've resigned myself to the fact that some will consider me arrogant no matter how I phrase things. C'est le guerre.

(Edit: re-reading all of this, I seem to be repeating much of what I've said before. If you already think I'm a long-winded grump, skip to the *** near the end.)

Yes, I make my living doing origami. Apparently that's enough for some people to shut off their minds, to brand me greedy pig, and to reinterpret whatever I say based on preconceptions rather than to consider what I'm actually saying. Ask yourself this: if I truly were a greedy, arrogant bastard, why would I bother to spend my time here trying to explain the position of origami professionals such as myself? I'd just sit quietly at home, waiting to see if anyone stole my work, and then get my lawyer to send off a nasty letter threatening a lawsuit. I don't. I'd like to think that people would be willing to work towards a system where folders can fold the designs they want, while creators can get the protection they seek. The responses in this thread leave me disillusioned, frustrated and angry because they allow no room for movement.

The two sides of this issue are the folders on one hand who want to be able to fold all of the wonderful things they see, and the creators who (for the most part) want to share, but want to have creative control over their work. Make no mistake here: this is a point on which no professional artist will budge because it is the core of our business. Without the ability to retain the moral right of authorship over a work, there is no way an artist can enter into the sorts of agreements required to licence and sell the work. Call it arrogance if you must, but it is a plain fact that if I can't claim that something I designed is mine to sell, I'll have to pack up and find a new line of work.

Having said that, there is a lot of room to manoeuvre to meet the desires of both sides. Copyright protects the rights of the creators while allowing folders to access their works. The Creative Commons licences further expand on and define allowable usage. Work is being done to create an iTunes-like system where diagrams can be downloaded (and paid for, if necessary). Creators want to share, but folders need to take some responsibility for making all of this work, too.

In the problem of preventing pregnancy, the only way to ensure that pregnancy doesn't occur is to not have sex. Similarly, the only way for a creator to ensure total creative control is to not share instructions. Oh, but folders want to fold, and, frankly, creators want to share. Here's where that explosive word "respect" comes in. I'm talking about folders respecting the right of creators to have creative control over their work. The creators have done their part: they've shared. What then is the folder's response.

My "arrogant" position is that the folders need to meet the creators halfway by respecting the restrictions under which the designs are shared. Otherwise, some (not all) creators will feel the need to follow the abstinence route to be properly protected. This is not a threat, but a statement of fact. Take advantage of a person too many times, and they'll just stop playing with you.

Christian's response is a prime example of the attitude that leaves me disillusioned and frustrated. He basically says that if someone is dumb enough to show him how to make something, it's not theirs any more. Never mind the time spent designing and refining the model. Never mind the time spent drawing the diagrams (or crease patterns) or making the videos or somehow providing the instruction. Never mind the generosity shown by sharing the instructions. Now that Christian knows how to make it, any versions that he makes are HIS, to do with as he pleases. Where's the room to move with that sort of attitude? Why would anyone want to share with someone like that?

Anna's attitude isn't much better. For whatever reason, she's taken it into her head that Eric Joisel is the prime example of a selfish creator. Here's a man who struggles to make a living making origami art. He's had people steal his designs and sell them as their own. And yet he still releases instructions for his work, despite the fact that many of works are one-of-a-kind sculptures that defy diagramming. He attends many conventions, freely sharing his knowledge and techniques. But, no, he doesn't disclose everything, so he is a greedy and selfish man. Given the beating he takes from his so-called "fans", the fact that he still shares at all is a miracle.

Then we have the argument, made by Christian and Anna and others (such as araknoid), that people are going to pirate anyway, so just shut up and "welcome to the 21st century". Welcome back to the stone age, I would say, when people could just take what they want as long as they could get away with it. If this is the 21st century, I'll gladly be labelled backwards. Rather than complaining that books are out of print, that books are hard to get, and that certain creators are hard to contact, make an effort to do something about it. Instead, I see people who have given up before an attempt has been made. So a book is out of print: start a petition to get the publisher to reprint it. Books are hard to get: nag your local bookstores to order more. Better yet, offer to do origami workshops so they can sell more origami books. Creators are hard to contact: there's a forum full of people here who might know how to get ahold of the person you wish to reach.

Do something to make a difference. Dave Brill came and asked people to help in his campaign to reduce online piracy of diagrams. Many people complained that it was a fool's errand. Some lashed out at his greed and arrogance. But did anyone offer any alternate solutions? A few, I think. More important, did anyone do anything about it? I don't know.

***

Basically, I'm tired of beating my head against the wall that is Christian and Anna. They pay lip service to the forum's rule that copyrighted material not be shared, but then actively encourage a total disregard for creators' rights. And I'm tired of people misinterpreting what I say, accusing me of things I never said. And I'm tired of araknoid's vicious posts that apparently can be laughed off with a reference whatever it is he likes to drink.

And for the record, I don't diagram because I don't like to. Piracy of diagrams and designs simply makes it less likely for me to want to diagram, but is not the main reason I don't do it.

I will not be reading responses to this thread. Indeed, I will not be returning to this forum. If you wish to contact me regarding anything, please do so via email, my website, my flickr page, or on facebook.

[angrydemon]

I understand your point...now that you've just spent half a page explaining it.

Origami isn't about making money, it's about creating art. Only a retarded fool would become an origami artist and expect to become a millionaire. It's the joy of creating a piece of artwork that makes origami satisfying. It is because of this passion that some people devote their life to become a full time origami artist. But obviously, they still have to make a living right? They can't just keep folding origami until they're either dead, bankrupt or homeless. That would be stupid. People like Joseph and Eric make a living from origami because they love it so much and want to spend as much time as they can too pursue their passion. Some people are too busy working in their tiny rat-infested cubicles to fully appreciate origami.

When you start selling models that OTHER people design, it makes their art meaningless. You are basically turning all their hard work into another piece of merchandise. Eventually, people will start mass-producing origami and use them as key chains or hood ornaments...or action figures! Or maybe it's also because people get jealous if you start making money that they should be making. I know I would get pissed off if something like that happened.

When you make diagrams or crease patterns, you are sharing your secrets with the world. But there will always be someone who is willing to readily exploit it for their own personal gain. While these people generally "suck", just remember that it happened because you wanted to share your ideas. While it is obviously not your fault, you know damn well that something like this is definitely going to happen. There is no point in constantly griping about it or threat everyone like a thief who is out to get you. If you really don't want people to exploit your work, then just don't share your secrets. Nobody is going to hate you for it. You don't owe the origami community anything and they can't ask you for it because it would be mean.

The reason why some people do this even though it's illegal is because the chances of getting caught is close to zero. It can never be prevented because people just don't care and there is nothing you can do about it. So, just let this matter rest. When you see someone steal your work, just calm down, relax, take a deep breath, and punch your fist through the computer screen so you don't have to look at it anymore. If you see this in public, just swap the word "computer screen" with "guy".

And by the way, Araknoid is right. Just stop making this issue such a big deal.

I'm not sure, bit I think every single paragraph I just wrote contradicts each other.

[Rdude]

Man I really hate to enter this hornets nest, but all I want is advice, and NOTHING MORE. <----- (ok scratch that)

Just to make that explicitly clear. <----- (and that)

I don't want to be responsiblefor holding a match to this Powder Keg of Europe that is the discussion on copyright, but I need advice.

Several hospitals and charitable organizations hold a festival of trees at Christmas time, where various local groups decorate trees with diferent themes, and then they are auctioned off to raise money for the hospitals. A friend and I are thinking of making an origami themed tree, and it would be nice to use a large variety of nice models, all of which are copyrighted. My question is this. Is it ok to do this, because we would not be folding for profit; the models would be earning money for a charity, like said.

And please try not to turn this into another spin off of the copyright flame war, because that is not my intent, and I'd really hate to see this forum loose another Master, Joseph leaving is too much.

Andrew

Ok forget it. I read this entire post and would be just as guilty not to dive in headfirst, but I'm not going to point fingers at anyone. I just want to express my extreme displeasure at the previous tirades, this entire topic reminds me of the kind of garbage that has been thrown around in the USA election campaign, courtisy of the "friendly neighbourhood media". (I mean no offence to people from the USA, I have relatives and friends there, and I'm not meaning to insult the country or people at all, its just the politics and media that make me sick). All the creators are asking for is a little respect, and if you want to give it to them great, but if you don't then good for you, whatever floats your goat. Justify whatever your position is with whatever reasons you want, but in the end it really has no bearing on the end result of this discussion, people with deadset opinions will never change. I think that the best course of action is that we agree collectively as a community to just drop this entire topic of piracy, copyright and ownership. Don't take this as preaching, cause its not, and I'm not going to post in a topic like this again, but I really don't see the point on spamming the boards with such useless garbage. I prefered the email spambots.

[xaoslord]

I have started to respond to this thread a couple times. Let’s look at it this way. If you heard a song you liked, and through your musical talent were able to learn to play the song, could you then record the song and sell the recordings? No. Although you may have the musical talent to play the song, you did not write the song. You do not have the right to sell something you never owned. Can you get permission to record that song from the artist? Possibly. But expect to pay for the privilege.
Some take offense at being told what is 'right.' But this concept can vary from one person to another. Some may think it is okay to profit from an artist's work. What if someone breaks in and steals the possesions that you spent your hard earned money on? Is that right? What if that person feels that they didn't receive the breaks in life that you did. Maybe they couldn't afford to go to school as you did, or have just had bad luck. In their eyes, they will always be able to justify their actions. That doesn't make it 'right.' It's an excuse to do what you want to do rather than what is ethical to do.
In the end, people will make their own decisions. I think all anyone can ask is that each person consider both sides before you come to that conclusion.

[origami_8]

It's just my opinion, but I see nothing false in decorating a christmas tree for charity reasons. If you want to get sure you can try to combine a list of models that you want to fold together with their authors, post this list either here or on the Origami Mailing List and ask for permission to do so.


Now on a personal note I want to clarify some things. First of I've never said that Eric Joisel would be the "prime example of a selfish creator", what I accused him for is being a racist. That's why he lost my respect and not the fact that he is making a living from Origami or maybe doesn't want to share his work. But when someone swears on me without reason and says things that just aren't true, then I don't see why I should show him respect any more.

the only way to ensure that pregnancy doesn't occur is to not have sex

That is a good example at how black and white the statements in this whole topic are (and not only the ones made by Joe).
To avoid getting pregnant there are several ways:
* Using condoms
* Taking the birth control pill
* Using the ring
* Implanting a loop
* Sterilisation
* ...
All of the above methods are actually working, it is just a matter of taste which one to choose.
The same is true for the points brought up in this discussion about selling models that aren't your own designs. It is a difference if you take an order to make this model, or if you display it somewhere and sell it as a piece of art, or if you fold something on the underground and someone asks you if he can have it for a small fee. And that's the point where I want to differentiate. Sure, if I make something on demand, I would definitely ask for permission first, or I would tell the person who wants the model to go with one of my or a traditional design. But hey if I meet someone that I probably will never meet again and he likes the model I folded and wants to give me a few bucks for it, why say no, just because I can't reach the author at the moment? Come on, isn't that a bit bullheaded?

Edit: To xaoslord
The song example is another example of what I just said. I know a lot of bands that play radio hits at parties and even official causes, I'm sure they did not seek permission first.

[snkhan]

Locked for the time being.