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General discussion about Origami, Papers, Diagramming, ...

Postby malachi » October 27th, 2005, 5:04 am

I think the goal of the "redundant" thread locking in cases where the thread being pointed to doesn't directly answer the question posted is to consolidate all of the information about a particular topic in one place, for future reference.

While I can see the value of this in theory, I'm not sure about the actual value of this in practice.

In theory this creates a single thread that is a resource for all of the issues on how to fold, say, a rose. However, in practice it can make it difficult to find the specific help that is needed.

This is, in part, hampered by a search function that isn't as helpful as I would like. Last time I used it, I searched for "bone folder" and found one thread with four pages of posts that I had to sift through to find one small reference to using a bone folder. I felt certain, however, that if I posted a question about the best use of a bone folder, it would have been locked and I would have been referred to the "origami tools" thread.

Sometimes I think the mods may get too caught up in trying to keep everything on topic.
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Postby wolf » October 27th, 2005, 5:25 am

malachi wrote:This is, in part, hampered by a search function that isn't as helpful as I would like.

Getting off topic here for a minute: Have you tried the "Display results as posts" option, and set it to returning 600 characters or more? This gives you a few more pages of results, but it consolidates all the posts with your search keywords, so you don't have to click through all the pages of the thread to find what you're looking for.
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Postby OrigamiDan » October 27th, 2005, 5:26 am

I have an idea about the locking situation using the rose topic as an example. Say I post something like
"I need help with step 24 of the kawasaki rose".

Instead of giving me the url to the other topic then locking it,

Say "This other topic has a lot of info on the rose. If you have anymore questions just ask. Also, dont forget about the search function either." Then dont lock it. Leave it open ended.

I think this would lead to a better atmosphere to the forum. I got one of my topics locked when I first joined, and I was kind of upset. Another moderator even posted after it was locked and said I wasn't in violation of the forum rules, but it should stay locked anyway. That made feel a little better, but I still wasnt happy about it.
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Postby malachi » October 27th, 2005, 5:43 am

wolf wrote:Getting off topic here for a minute: Have you tried the "Display results as posts" option, and set it to returning 600 characters or more? This gives you a few more pages of results, but it consolidates all the posts with your search keywords, so you don't have to click through all the pages of the thread to find what you're looking for.


No, I hadn't noticed/tried that particular configuration of the search options, although you are most likely correct that it would have provided more useful results.

However, I think this just highlights the issue I mentioned. I'm a fairly savvy computer user and I didn't notice those options as being helpful or necessary to find the information I was searching for, and I find it unlikely that a new member here would be likely to realize it either. It seems somewhat unreasonable to expect new users to be able to search the forum in an optimal way to find out if the information that they are looking for exists. I'm not saying that they shouldn't try searching first, just that it may not always be easy to find something useful even with a search or two.
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Postby origami_8 » October 27th, 2005, 8:39 am

malachi wrote:I think the goal of the "redundant" thread locking in cases where the thread being pointed to doesn't directly answer the question posted is to consolidate all of the information about a particular topic in one place, for future reference.

That´s exactly the point for me. It´s very difficult to read through maybe six or more threads instead of one where all the related informations are packed together. If it would be possible, I would often wish to combine topics, speak hanging one thread onto another, but the only way that makes this possible would be to quote a person and delete the other topic instead.
And leaving a topic open after giving the url to the other topic would end up that most of the people whould say "but how exactly do I do..." because they want their answer just after their question without reading through maybe four pages of text where everything is described very detailed.

Closing a topic instead of deleting it has sometimes another benefit. It shows that topics containing something special, like for example a diagram request for a Copyrighted item, will be closed imediately, so that less people try to post something like that.

I don´t close topics because I think otherwise as the poster does. That would be very poor I think.

The copyright and respect thing was closed by Joseph because it was a strange violation of the forum rules. Maybe it would have been better to only delete the text and leave the topic open for response, who knows. But I think he´s done the right thing with deleting this very emotional text because this Forum shouldn´t be a place for private wars.
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Postby wolf » October 27th, 2005, 9:05 am

origami_8 wrote:And leaving a topic open after giving the url to the other topic would end up that most of the people whould say "but how exactly do I do..." because they want their answer just after their question without reading through maybe four pages of text where everything is described very detailed.

But that's fine, because forum members can choose not to respond to the second question, which quickly consigns the thread to the bottom of the pile.

Anyway, like Mr Wu says in another thread, it's not so much what you say, but how you say it. Locking a help request thread immediately after posting a url is pretty much the online equivalent of slamming a door in someone's face - you're not giving the original poster a chance to respond, even if it's just to say thanks.
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Postby origami_8 » October 27th, 2005, 9:14 am

I will think about your words wolf and discuss it with the other moderators.
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Postby TheRealChris » October 27th, 2005, 9:16 am

Wolf, I disagree with your whole argument. it may not be completely wrong, but written in a very onesided point of view, and your argumentation is written in a way, that it fits into your point of view.

the reason, why I'm locking duplicated threads is, because I think it's completely useless to talk about the same thing in two or more rooms, as long as there's enough space to discuss this in a big room alltogether. if somebody asks a question, that has probably been asked 7 times before, he probably won't get another answer, because it has been answered too many times (that's the other side of your he-wont-post-his-question-again-argument).
browsing a single thread is much more efficient that browsing through 5 threads, especially when you are in search for an answer. a group in thread A may still be in search for an answer, that the group in thread B may already have found. and think about this: you're trying to get help for the red-herring-diagram. you read the first thread, maybe the second, but if you read the same things again and again, you surely get bored and stop reading. and I don't know how many people read a question that has been discussed some times before, and think "oh no, not again".

just my point of view.

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Postby wolf » October 27th, 2005, 10:12 am

TheRealChris wrote:if somebody asks a question, that has probably been asked 7 times before, he probably won't get another answer, because it has been answered too many times (that's the other side of your he-wont-post-his-question-again-argument).

We haven't quite gotten to that stage yet, yes? And if we do, we've probably got a more serious problem on our hands.

I think what Malachi is getting at is, can a moderator be sure that a question is already one that has been asked before? This place is an international forum, so there's naturally an increased probability of misunderstandings arising from language differences.

For example, there's this thread:
http://snkhan.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=713

I don't believe that the original question was satisfactorily answered with the new url. The query in the above thread was on specific models, while the referenced thread was on techniques. Intermixing the two could cause significant thread drift and entanglement, and in this situation will make it harder for someone to use the search function. Both threads would, in my opinion, have evolved along two different directions.

Going back to the big room analogy, I can similarly argue that if you're looking for a resistor in a warehouse, it'll be easier to find it if there's smaller rooms marked 'passive components', 'active components', 'cables' than a single large room marked 'electronic components'.
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Postby TheRealChris » October 27th, 2005, 10:46 am

Going back to the big room analogy, I can similarly argue that if you're looking for a resistor in a warehouse, it'll be easier to find it if there's smaller rooms marked 'passive components', 'active components', 'cables' than a single large room marked 'electronic components'.


wrong.
what I said was, that it's useless to have rooms called "passive components 1" (kawasaki rose), "passive components 2" (need help on kawasaki rose),"passive components 3" (got stuck on kawasaki rose) and "passive components 4" (rose by kawasaki). one large room would be "the kawasaki rose".
if you're looking for stuff in a warehouse (origami forum), it's easier to find it, when there are rooms (topics) like cables (wetfolding), power supplies (tissue foil) and so on.

I don't believe that the original question was satisfactorily answered with the new url. The query in the above thread was on specific models, while the referenced thread was on techniques.


this fits better for my argument as for yours, because if there won't be so many splitted topics about the same theme, it would probably be easier to find, what you're searching for, wouldn't it?


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Last edited by TheRealChris on October 27th, 2005, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wolf » October 27th, 2005, 10:49 am

I'll grant that the Kawasaki rose is an odd exception. That thread needs to be made a sticky, or compulsory reading for anyone joining the forum.

My point still stands with the CP example.
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Postby TheRealChris » October 27th, 2005, 10:51 am

I quote myself, because we've done our entries at the same time :)

this fits better for my argument as for yours, because if there won't be so many splitted topics about the same theme, it would probably be easier to find, what you're searching for, wouldn't it?
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Postby wolf » October 27th, 2005, 10:56 am

No, let's get back to the CP example and do a thorough analysis, yes?

I've presented specific arguments about why that did not seem to be a good idea. I'm waiting to see a counter-argument in the same fashion.
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Postby TheRealChris » October 27th, 2005, 12:18 pm

I've presented specific arguments about why that did not seem to be a good idea. I'm waiting to see a counter-argument in the same fashion.


I did give you a counter-argument, you only "overread" it... is there a term like overread??? :)
of course your example is right in the meaning, that the question wasn't answered right. but regarding to your CP question, I'm 100% sure, that there were beginners CP shown, somewhere inside any other thread. I can remeber anna, suggesting the dopsonfly CP to start with...
and because of this my counter argument is:
if the posters would just post the things within a single thread (in this case a CP thread), the informations wouldn't be scattered all over the forum. and the only way, I can narrow this problem a little bit, is to stop another conversation befor it may become too big. of course I may be wrong, but there is always a chance to tell me, that I was. and I seldom kill people when they correct me :twisted:


Christian

ps: I searched for "dopsonfly" but didn't find the right topic. mayb Anna can help me out here :)
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Postby origami_8 » October 27th, 2005, 12:39 pm

TheRealChris wrote:I searched for "dopsonfly" but didn't find the right topic. mayb Anna can help me out here :)

Maybe you try to search "dobsonfly" instead,...
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