Shuki Kato's book

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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby Fluffy » November 26th, 2012, 2:18 am

phillipcurl wrote:that's good. otherwise, it would have been like one of Lang's infamous "measure and mark these 30 points" models.


Your right that it is good.. But let me tell you something.

Have you ever diagrammed a model? I know you diagrammed that star for OrigamiUSA, but like an animal? I've been diagramming some of my animals, and it takes sometimes 3 hours to completely draw the last step (the finished model). It's very painful. So for someone like Lang, who has to draw out these 200+ diagramming sequences, time is an important factor. To diagram references which most of the dang on time is harder than folding it, is hard. Please, do not scold Lang like how he diagrams references. It is much harder than you think.. I have Lang's Origami Design Secrets - Second Version, in his moose diagrams it does have the mark and measure points, but without that it actually would be more confusing.. So please don't say that. I do not know what program Shuki is using. Either way, it is very hard to diagram animals or even anything no matter what the software. To even get to a point where you can make a diagram look good, takes hours. So you use a technique to abridge the time to make a part of the diagram.

Another example of this is when people say "you should make diagrams of that" or "when are you going to diagram this?" Most people do not understand what they are asking. Things take time. Diagramming takes almost too much time, that at some times I've been wanting to just forget diagramming models and just make CPs. But not everyone knows how to use CPs, so they resort to diagramming. Not everyone can afford diagrams in books so a select few (just in general not on this forum) resort to torrenting which makes diagrammers think that diagramming is worthless and not worth the time. So when people ask for diagrams, some designers get frustrated when that is asked because the person asking that does not realize the time it takes. If that is asked in a friendly way, instead of "Diagrams please" then some people at least consider it. Sorry to get off topic, but this also needed to be stated as a general statement.

So I hope you get the point.

Jake
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby phillipcurl » November 26th, 2012, 2:27 am

I understand what you are saying, I was not trying to scold the way Robert diagrams in any way. I know that diagramming is a pain in the ass, and takes forever. What I meant was that I hate models where you have to measure and mark, its extremely annoying, but a lot easier than trying to fold and get those references (if even possible). I'm just glad the Shuki is diagramming one where you don't have to measure + mark, although I would be perfectly fine with it if he did. I wasn't intending to insult Shuki (he is a good friend if mine - I would never do that) or anyone else, for that matter. Just stating an opinion I'm sure many share.

And also, what you said about torrenting books: i don't believe its right in any way, but there are many people who don't have enough money to afford expensive origami books, so they go to downloading them. I know how it is to have no money, I grew up in a broken home. my dad was a drug dealer, and my mom had to stay home with my younger brother and I. we had no money. Origami was my escape when bad things happened, it helped to calm me down. but I didn't have access to any expensive books, so I would use the internet to get diagrams.

should we prevent people without access to books, or knowledge of crease patterns from origami? no. that's stupid.

what is bad, though, is when people who would have no problem buying a book downloading it, that is wrong.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby Fluffy » November 26th, 2012, 2:53 am

That is true Phillip. As I was reading this, I felt bad. Origami was my escape from the heaviness of the world. When people try to pick on you or where you don't have anywhere to express yourself, origami was my escape also.

I'm just saying when you fold a model and you encounter a challenge, you fear it. When you overcome something, it makes you feel good. I think that is partly the reason Lang does the "mark and measure". When I tried the Flower Tower, I couldn't fold it for two years. Malachi taught me that. When I finally figured it out, it felt amazing to overcome that. The other half of it is time. Things take time. I feel like I'm being repetitive. Lets hope not. I know you were not scolding him, but if everything is taken in an indirect standard, then yes it could be taken that way or it could be taken as being stated. That might sound confusing, if you are confused, just read it like 10 times. I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill, but I hope the point is made.

Jake
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby cowburger13 » November 26th, 2012, 2:55 am

phillipcurl wrote:I know how it is to have no money, I grew up in a broken home. my dad was a drug dealer, and my mom had to stay home with my younger brother and I. we had no money. Origami was my escape when bad things happened, it helped to calm me down. but I didn't have access to any expensive books, so I would use the internet to get diagrams.

That's heart touching. My family also has been through some very tough times, and origami was my portal to peace, and kept me away from depression. :)
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby Fluffy » November 26th, 2012, 3:38 am

Phillip: I did not mean to scold you in any way at all, so please do not take it that way.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby phillipcurl » November 26th, 2012, 4:15 am

that's alright, Jake. i didn't take any offense from what you had said, and i didn't think you were scolding me.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby Fluffy » November 27th, 2012, 2:32 am

Ok. I'm sorry again. I actually do not know why I attacked you like that (lol I didn't mean to scold you). Sorry
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby phillipcurl » November 27th, 2012, 3:12 am

Jake, I told you - its fine. I was never mad at you.

lets please get back on topic now, please.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby origami-artist-galen » November 27th, 2012, 9:05 pm

... Giganotosaurus 3.0 completed
Image
Image
Image

I know I said I would diagram this... this will be brutal.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby phillipcurl » November 27th, 2012, 9:53 pm

that looks awesome, Shuki!
its definitely more distinguishable from a Tyrannosaurus Rex now ;D

your book is going to be great.. the model selection you have chosen is superb.
just an idea: for the models you decide not to diagram, you should put them in a crease pattern section, say, in the back of the book, and include reference points and some insight into the model. therefore, none of your best models would be left out of the book.

anyways, best of luck diagramming the giganoto.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby cowburger13 » November 27th, 2012, 10:36 pm

I suggested the same to him. I agree Shuki, this is marvelous!
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby Raptorex55 » November 28th, 2012, 5:20 pm

And I thought watching the process of the kabutomusi diagraming was torturous. I must say, your giganotasaurus is perhaps my favorite model- ever! Watching the process of diagramming will drive me nuts. But Im sure the wait will be worth it. :lol: It's diagrams will make your book invaluable, if the others haven't already!
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby origami-artist-galen » November 28th, 2012, 8:40 pm

phillipcurl wrote:that looks awesome, Shuki!
its definitely more distinguishable from a Tyrannosaurus Rex now ;D

your book is going to be great.. the model selection you have chosen is superb.
just an idea: for the models you decide not to diagram, you should put them in a crease pattern section, say, in the back of the book, and include reference points and some insight into the model. therefore, none of your best models would be left out of the book.

anyways, best of luck diagramming the giganoto.


We'll see. Ideally, I'd like to include diagrams for my favorite models (regardless of complexity) and then perhaps throw in some older crease patterns in the back for people who just have too much spare time :D That means I WANT to include the Ohmu and ZD (most difficult models), but only plan on drawing a full-page cp with references (Like Andrey did in his new book) and then some guidelines on collapsing and shaping.

Now, honestly, this will take a very long time... If you all would prefer I could just go the individual diagrams route through origamiusa, or maybe publish a smaller volume (~13-17 models) with the rest available as individual downloads... I'll let you know a few things, on Origamiusa you can sell any product under 50mb at any price range and the seller will receive 70% - $0.12, so far I've sold 16 of my Stag Beetle diagrams.

Now, if this is the case, do you guys think I should include most of the super-complex models in the book or individually?

Here's a idea about what I might include in the book:

1. Bear Cub (my first decent original model)
2. Diplodocus
3. Simple Dragonfly
4. Simple Dragon
5. Goldfish
6. Wolf
7. Triceratops
8. Brachiosaurus
9. Giganotosaurus
10. Kabutomushi
11. Atlas Beetle
12. Western Dragon v1 (short neck)
13. Western Dragon v3
14. Ohmu (I don't know about the copyright)
15. Zoanoid Dragon

And then these would be available for download at a later date:

16. Kudu
17. Flying Hercules Beetle
18. Asuka
19. Eva 1
20. Parasaurolophus (I need to refine it)
21. Giant Root Borer
22. Dragonfly v4

Or I could leave the Ohmu and ZD as downloadables, but the price would be steep and I don't know if people would buy them.
Last edited by origami-artist-galen on November 28th, 2012, 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby cowburger13 » November 28th, 2012, 8:57 pm

I would just take the ohmu and zoanoid dragon off the list if your talking about diagrams. Crease patterns would be nice though :D I see no reason to include the v. 1 of the western dragon, as they are both pretty similar :)
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Re: Shuki Kato's book

Postby phillipcurl » November 28th, 2012, 9:21 pm

I like the idea of selling both the book and individual diagrams, but I think the Kudu, root boorer, Ohmu, ZD, Dragonfly v4, and Parasauralophus should be included in the book. Including them would be following the underlying theme, super-complex insects and animals (including dinosaurs). I believe it would be better for sales. The book is obviously targeted at a more experienced audience, so you should probably include as many super-complex models as possible.

Here is the lists of what I would think would be best for your book and OrigamiUSA:

Book:
-Section 1: insects
--1. Simple Dragonfly
--2. Dragonfly V4
--3. Flying Kabutomushi
--4. Flying Atlas Beetle
--5. Flying Stag Beetle
--6. Flying Hercules Beetle
--7. Giant Root Boorer
-Section 2: Dinosaurs
--8. Triceratops
--9. Brachiosaurus
--10. Giganotosaurus
--11. Parasaurolophus
-Section 3: Animals
--12. Bear Cub
--13. Goldfish
--14. Wolf
--15. Kudu
Section 4: Fantasy
--16. Simple Dragon
--17. Western Dragon V1 (could be sold on OrigamiUSA, instead)
--18. Western Dragon V3
Section 5: Crease patterns
--19. Ohmu
--20. Zoanoid Dragon
+ anything else you have diagrammed I forgot about

OrigamiUSA
1. Western Dragon V1
2. Asuka (diagrams)
3. EVA 1(diagrams)
4. Flying stag
+ anything else that didn't make it into the book, and your future models, if you decide to diagram them.

I think that would probably maximize your profit and make the book the best, while sticking to an underlying theme, and keeping your model count up.
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