Monthly Folding Challenge: October 2011

[Razzmatazz]

Is it just me or are other people smelling a whiff of troll in healatequila's posts? Right now I fell that healatequila is holding the position of a bully. And for what? Perhaps because he didn't win, in which case he really should grow up, but I believe he didn't even contribute, so perhaps I could even say that this challenge is nothing to do with him! It is not nice to insult non-native English speakers,(I even consider it borderline fascism) and I bet that healatequila's French is much worse than the judge's English. Healatequila should really calm down, monthly challenges are informal and fun and if he cant handle the judge's decision he should really just go away, as his contributions to this thread so far have been nothing but malicious and spiteful.
At the end of the day, Mr Healatequila, who the hell do you think you are?

Plus 1.

[Axel´s Origami]

Yes, yes make a mockery of the discussion instead of adding anything of value, Akugami/Axel/Gab.

I wasen't mocking it, just pointing out that 4chan level drama was (and still is) occuring. I don't think Gab or Akugami was mocking it either, just seing the humor.

The point still stands that in 2009 there were more people interested in the monthly challenge then there have been on average for the past 2 years, yet the people who competed in the past STILL FOLD, just not for this monthly challenge.

Please provide statistics or simmilar.
Also, did you consider that people just don't feel like participating?

For those saying that the system has always worked, why has the competition died down here specifically if the old competitors still fold?

Aliens brain washed them. Or they lost their intrest in the monthly challenge.

Juston, you claim it is due to the topic, but there is no real evidence to support your claim.

You were right here, but you yourself do the same thing.

I am not asking at all for changes to the way a competition is judged, just that the judge say beforehand their preference in model difficulty, for it does seem to have an impact, if you look at past competitions.

I kinnda agree, but sometimes the judge don't realy have a proper reason, just gut felling.

At this point I feel there has not been anything of value added after the initial point was stated, and this is not the first time I have stated this exact problem, but I understand why it is not being addressed.

Then don't say anything else.
I read all of your 13 posts and you haven't mentioned this before. What's your excuse for this?
Why isen't it being adressed? Please share this knowledge.

After all, these competitions do not matter, since there is no incentive the winner does not matter, it is all just lighthearted fun.

Well, if they are fun they do matter, don't they?
There is several motivations: excitment, fun, the winer gets respect etc.

After all, these competitions do not matter, since thereIf that is true though, then why is this a competition at all? If you are not at least competing for pride or some form of recognition (for the winner usually should display high quality works and should attract SOME form of attention), then why is a winner announced at all?

The competition is held for the reasons stated above. It's fun!
And we do compete for pride and recognition, at least I do. The winner is announced to give the pride and respect to the one that the judge thinks made the best model(s).
And who are you to decide what is high quality?
To quote myself: "Awesomnes and impesivenes of a model is subjective.
There is no such thing as objective awesomnes and/or impressivenes (unless you're religious, then god(s) is probably objectivly awesome and/or impresive (but I'm not gonna start some sh!t about religion here, I dont want to get banhammered))" - the Ryu Yin 4.0 thread.

Since old people stick to old customs, I think I will drop the issue, since now it is no more than a game of mockery and not discussion.

Lulwut?
It's not a game of mockery, it's still a discussion.

Everyone (including me) needs to chill.

Here's some good music for y'all.

[healatequila]

At this point I feel there has not been anything of value added after the initial point was stated,

Of course only you and people who agree with you have anything substantive to say. How foolish of us to oppose you![/quote]

The reason I stated this was because at this point it is just a back and forth argument, there is nothing productive coming from continuing the conversation anymore. I did not mean that getting my ideas argued against myself was pointless or that others had nothing substantial to say in the slightest. I am now being mocked by the community, referring to me as troll, which is indeed a negative term, even referred to as creating a topic as terrible as something from 4chan. I feel I had a legitimate point, or it would not have even been a discussion, it would have been outright shot down. I reacted as I did because of those creating personal attacks instead of keeping on topic.

Anonymous Person: I did not compete this month, or any month on these forums and feel you directly attacking me is not in any way constructive and is rude. At the end of the day I think I am a person trying to get a point across and it definitely worked. I could throw your own question and remarks right back at you, I have not seen you trying to discuss anything rational, this is the first post you make about the subject and it is instantly negative towards me, without you actually trying to understand my point.

The reason I mentioned the winners not getting a reward was in response to what Juston stated about this competition more being for fun and not for having a winner, which did not make too much since to me, for if you compete do you not compete to win at least in some form? I will admit I did not think about the competition merely being there to continue itself.

For providing statistics for previous years, just go through and see the number of pages in each month, it is usually 3-5 now while in 09 it was like 9 pages. This being said, I think my point has been shown and there is really nothing more to discuss, as not many agree with me, which is ok I got my ideas out there. I do not think it was crazy to think I was being mocked by the picture and offtopic subjects thrown in my direction, and telling me to calm down AFTER the fact is salt in the wound. This all said my intentions were not to start a war with every member of the forum, which is where this is going. I am ending the topic here, if that is even possible.

Please allow me to recap as my final words, I was upset about the judging process of these forums and listed that it was a possible cause to the general decline of competitors over the years. If this discussion goes on without me (which I highly doubt) well then that is great, but at least my discussion made a few people think about it how the contest is currently going on.

[anonymous person]

Healatequila, how else did you expect anyone to reply to this? you can't just post anything as blatantly offensive as this without expecting a reply. You may not have intented it, but it does come across as an attack on the judge who in my opinion has done no wrong.

So what you are saying is, instead of judging on concepts such as folding accuracy/precision and design structure or technique, you went for models the only models that you could understand. From your broken grammar, it seems that English is not your native language, I think it is interesting to see which style of model appeals to different cultures. Aside from that, I am not at all shocked at the top 3 places winning, except for Anermak's,

[Argonaut]

Personally I like the fact that there is a judge rather than a poll. I think it makes the competition more open, as we don't know exactly what to expect. Each judge is a bit different, so you get a range of different types of model winning each month. It means that someone less practised and confident like myself can enter and still feel like we have a tiny bit of a chance. I think if it were decided by poll, we would end up with very similar models winning each week.

See, I wish I could see whether my model does appeal to a broader audience, as opposed to just one person. The argument that anyone can win is at heart an argument that using only 1 judge is a loose cannon. Personally, I think the best man should win, instead of it being more or less random.

Because of this I believe we should do both the poll and have a judge's decision. This way everyone is happy. If this option appears undesirable, I would at least like to know the judge's preferences ahead of time.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to offend anyone or put anyone down. Please take this post as it is, which is constructive.

[Argonaut]

Healatequila, how else did you expect anyone to reply to this? you can't just post anything as blatantly offensive as this without expecting a reply. You may not have intented it, but it does come across as an attack on the judge who in my opinion has done no wrong.

Healatequila has already dropped the argument, so you should stop scolding him now.

[Razzmatazz]

Personally I like the fact that there is a judge rather than a poll. I think it makes the competition more open, as we don't know exactly what to expect. Each judge is a bit different, so you get a range of different types of model winning each month. It means that someone less practised and confident like myself can enter and still feel like we have a tiny bit of a chance. I think if it were decided by poll, we would end up with very similar models winning each week.

See, I wish I could see whether my model does appeal to a broader audience, as opposed to just one person. The argument that anyone can win is at heart an argument that using only 1 judge is a loose cannon. Personally, I think the best man should win, instead of it being more or less random.

Because of this I believe we should do both the poll and have a judge's decision. This way everyone is happy. If this option appears undesirable, I would at least like to know the judge's preferences ahead of time.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to offend anyone or put anyone down. Please take this post as it is, which is constructive.

Having a poll clearly shows losers. We have always been a constructive community of folders of all levels. Take for example, Joshua. He came on here and was folding things like crazy and wasn't putting much effort in making the models look great. Now look at him, he's pretty great.
In making a poll it determines winners, sure. But it also determines losers. New folders will be discouraged. They will lose enthusiasm. Our community then just develops into something it shouldn't be.

And also another draw back with the poll, majority of votes will go to super complex models because people such as healatequila are out there thinking that is what, "modern origami", is all about.

[juston]

Disclaimer: I am not trying to offend anyone or put anyone down. Please take this post as it is, which is constructive.

I wouldn't worry, I don't think anyone is actually upset with you. I'm certainly not.

See, I wish I could see whether my model does appeal to a broader audience, as opposed to just one person.

And there are ways to do this that don't require changing the rules of the competition. The way most of us do it is to start a flickr or deviantart page for our work. If you don't want to make a new account just for this purpose there's a dedicated gallery section on the forum. This method has the added benefit of discouraging spamming of the challenge thread with comments, criticisms and virtual high fives that end up vastly outnumbering posts which actually contain entries.

Because of this I believe we should do both the poll and have a judge's decision. This way everyone is happy. If this option appears undesirable, I would at least like to know the judge's preferences ahead of time.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to this but I can't help but feel that opening up a poll on every monthly challenge would only encourage the kind of second guessing the judge mentality that has tainted this particular challenge. Like others have pointed out, this never happens and it's frankly a little shocking. I wouldn't want this sort of thing to become the norm

As it stands the duels and the tournament are already decided with polls. Surely there are enough of those sorts of competitions going on to keep anyone satisfied. The idea that the one competition that doesn't conform must be beaten into a shape resembling all the other identical competitions just seems needlessly redundant to me.

[healatequila]

I think it is great that this discussion continued after I backed out, but I feel that cheap shots are being taken at me after I felt I had gotten my point across, and had even stated such. This is my first real experience with other origami enthusiasts, it honestly gives me a terrible view, since some responders (quite a few actually) could not keep things as civil as I had hoped.

First off, Juston, you almost clearly state you are upset at me with your statement, if I upset you by discussing what I felt was an issue, well then I am sorry. As for creating a flickr or gallery on this website, I have seen tons of great origamists who get little to no recognition this way ( at least in the form of comments), as I am sure you have as well if you browse flickr or the galleries on this forum.

Razzmatazz, you say I dislike simple models, when I CLEARLY STATED IF DONE WELL I APPRECIATE THEM, EVEN LISTING SEVERAL SIMPLE DESIGNERS THAT I APPRECIATE. Do I need to list more, or even get down to specific models I like? Should I quote myself and write +1 there? Is that the appropriate response?

Healatequila, how else did you expect anyone to reply to this? you can't just post anything as blatantly offensive as this without expecting a reply. You may not have intented it, but it does come across as an attack on the judge who in my opinion has done no wrong.

So what you are saying is, instead of judging on concepts such as folding accuracy/precision and design structure or technique, you went for models the only models that you could understand. From your broken grammar, it seems that English is not your native language, I think it is interesting to see which style of model appeals to different cultures. Aside from that, I am not at all shocked at the top 3 places winning, except for Anermak's,

I do not know if I can take you seriously about this because of your previous outburst....but in case this was legitimate, I was connecting the dots to show that Ray95 is probably from another country and that it interests me that people from different countries enjoy different forms of art (simple origami models in this case). Please do not just assume I am being blatantly offensive.

If you want to continue discussing this topic, which I have already stated I feel all that can be said on the topic has already been stated, please at least ATTEMPT to leave me out of it, since I see most of you prefer personal attacks to actual responses to the discussion I arose.

[loganorigami]

god it's like reading a book

surely the mfc (monthly folding challenge) is meant as a stimulus to design models for personal achievement and recognition. i honestly dont care if i win or if i lose, im happy if i 've made a model. as it has been said many times on this post the mfc is just for fun.

[origami_8]

Although I haven't participated in the last monthly folding challenges I've participated in quite a few. Why did I do it? Because it is fun to fold something to a given subject in a certain amount of time (one month in this case). Did I want to win? Well, that's a hard question. Sure it is a great feeling to know someone thinks your work is better than someone else's but for the most part I longed for second place or maybe someone telling he likes my model without any placing. This is because when you win you have not only to judge the next competition but also choose the subject of the following challenge. It is not easy to come up with a subject that everyone likes that is easy enough to attract many people but hard enough to actually be a challenge and precise enough to make judgement easy (and it never is).
I do not always agree with the judgement, but I accept that there are other opinions than my own on what model was "best". "Best" is subjective non the less. All participants are winners in these challenges as they've created something new, have been creative and shown their output in a public place. Everyone's a winner here. But we need someone to judge the next challenge and announce a new topic. That's how I see it.

Now on to the Moderator part:
I hate to say it out loud, but healatequila, you really act like a troll. Please reread the discussion from the beginning. Sometimes it is hard to see yourself acting wrong when the world seems to be against you. These challenges are peaceful and not meant to find winners and losers but to showcase your work to a specific topic in a certain amount of time. No one here wants to discredit your opinions but you've acted very aggressive and started to attack people without a reason. Please stop acting like this and try to become part of the community (a lovely one once you get to know it).
Unfortunately I've been very busy recently, that's why I've not seen this discussion until now.

[Argonaut]

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to this but I can't help but feel that opening up a poll on every monthly challenge would only encourage the kind of second guessing the judge mentality that has tainted this particular challenge. Like others have pointed out, this never happens and it's frankly a little shocking. I wouldn't want this sort of thing to become the norm

As it stands the duels and the tournament are already decided with polls. Surely there are enough of those sorts of competitions going on to keep anyone satisfied. The idea that the one competition that doesn't conform must be beaten into a shape resembling all the other identical competitions just seems needlessly redundant to me.

Upon analyzing it I would agree that having both a poll and a judge would be a bad idea.

[legionzilla]

Guys, i know some of you guys put in alot of effort into the challenges (i didn't participate) and spent like hours folding your really complex designs, only for it not to make it into the top 3 in favour of 'simpler' models.
We are all human, and so is the judge, and hence we all have our own preferences. Its not about the rulez of having 'no complex models' that the judge made, but rather that the judge simply preferred the simpler models in favour of the complicated ones.
The beauty of the monthly challenges is that due to the great variety of judges and their preferences, everyone can become a winner, even the most unexpected. By saying that the judge should only pick complex models to win the challenge is simply preposterous as many of us find art in folding simpler, possibly more abstract models.
If we make the monthly challenges into a poll thing, then i believe that the monthly challenge has loss one of its incentives and that the suspense in the challenge will also be loss. The single judge is what makes the monthly challenge unique.
Some people like anermak are highly talented and they win pretty often (i think the mentioned has won like 10 times alr =D), but others, they have not won before but still participate often. After all, the monthly challenge is more about the fun, and challenging yourself to design something awesome.

[booggerboy]

As a novice folder, and regular reader of this forum I'd like to say how much I enjoy reading the monthly challenges. Just a coupla thoughts:

No polls please. And new/different judges as often as possible! I don't think I've once had the same opinion as a judge, and probably won't ever (unless I enter/win at some point in the future).

The only negative aspect I've spotted are the sentences like "that is great! it will defo win" (these often come from younger members). Leave the winning comments to the judge, and respect the judges' opinions.

Perhaps a "better" competition would have "prizes" and strict criteria. That competition would not be as interesting to me as the monthly challenge.

laters

bb