What is the best type of paper for the most complex origami?

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What is the best type of paper for the most complex origami?

Postby Airos Veyn » April 13th, 2019, 5:13 am

First of all, sorry for the bad English, but I don't speak it very well...
I know that this kind of questions will have written a thousand times and I've read the posts and also other sites, but I haven't found anything written in Italian, so I found it difficult to understand some things about this topic.
I've seen the two happyfolding videos:" how to make tissue foil" and the "double tissue", but I didn't understand exactly what changes. I think that since tissue foil has aluminum it allows you to make more defined folds.
I realized that there is aluminum in tissue foil that should allow you to make more defined folds. Instead the double tissue is the same, but without aluminum, the other thing that changes is the addition of glue with methylcellulose (MC). So the MC has to change something, right? But is it better than have the aluminum?
I also read some posts where someone said that tissue foil is too thick for more complicated models and that it was possible to use a single tissue and treat it with mc before shaping, but I'm not sure that this could work.
Finally, I've seen that you can use the mc (diluted with water) during modeling to keep the folds and the model firm, but on what type of paper can this be realized, for example, would it also work with the tissue foil?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Baltorigamist » April 13th, 2019, 10:21 pm

A lot of factors go into choosing the right paper for a very complex model. The first thing, however, is to define “complexity” for your particular situation. There are models like Robert Lang’s, Shuki Kato’s, and Satoshi Kamiya’s (which can have hundreds of steps), and then there is the work of Giang Dinh (whose name I might have just misspelled), which involves only a few folds but is very difficult to shape. I’m guessing you’re more concerned with the 200+ step models.

What you have said already is correct—double tissue and tissue foil differ in that TF has a layer of aluminum foil between the tissue layers (and is thicker than double tissue). Methylcellulose (MC) acts as a sizing and binding agent; its purpose is to strengthen the paper’s fibers.
The trick with applying MC is to be firm yet gentle; most tissue paper is extremely weak when wet. However, there are a few brands that have exceptional strength (certain Hallmark colors come to mind). I don’t know what brands are readily available where you live, so you may need to order online.

Besides double tissue, you might be interested in mulberry paper, which is usually sold as “unryu.” It, too, requires MC before folding, and it yields beautiful results.
Another option (albeit a much more expensive one) is to go with handmade paper such as Dó, Ogami, or Origamido. I have never folded with Dó, but Origamido and Ogami are extremely strong and can be made extremely thin. The only drawback is the price, but the papers’ qualities more than make up for it.
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Airos Veyn » April 14th, 2019, 5:20 pm

So they are both good methods for complex origami. Tissue foil is better for models with more folds and double tissue is better for models that need more shaping. Or is it the opposite?
Also, can we use a wet-folding technique or the mc diluted with water to model tissue foil and double tissue or just one of the two? or do you need any other kind of paper?
I think that wet-folding, that is only with water, is better with a thicker sheet. Instead, modeling with diluted mc I'm not sure that it can work with tissue foil, maybe only with double tissue due to aluminum foil, or has nothing to do with it?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Baltorigamist » April 16th, 2019, 12:20 am

Tissue foil is generally better for models with more shaping, although its thickness makes it difficult to use for models with many layers.
To answer your second question, MC is much better with double tissue since TF has the shaping abilities of foil. You are correct in that wet-folding (with water) is best done with thicker paper. Wet-shaping (with methylcellulose) is best with double tissue or handmade papers.
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Airos Veyn » April 16th, 2019, 7:42 am

OK, I got it. So I found the glue with mc (Metylan normal), but the other glue I saw in the tissue foil video (Ovalit T) can't find it on the internet. I found this https://www.amazon.it/Metylan/dp/B01CYQT2AQ/
But I'm not sure it's the same. So I would like to know, is there any kind of glue that would work well with tinfoil?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby origami_8 » April 16th, 2019, 8:40 am

Yes, they renamed it a few years ago (Ovalit TM). This should be the right one: https://www.amazon.it/x/dp/B000U3YKOE
But you can probably get something similar at your local hardware store.
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Airos Veyn » April 16th, 2019, 3:24 pm

Thanks for everything.
Another question, in theory for a sheet with a single color can I use mc to prepare a single tissue? I read that it might be too thin, but with a thicker paper it could work?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Splunge » April 16th, 2019, 4:09 pm

Treating a single sheet of tissue paper with MC is an option. I folded Manuel Sirgo's Boxes Mantis with a single tissue paper:
Image

So yes, it is possible, but is single sheet is much softer and more sensitive than double tissue. But it may be necessary for complex models, like insects.
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Airos Veyn » April 17th, 2019, 6:57 am

In fact this method with insects should work well, also because for most of these types of models I don' t need two sides of different colors.
And always in case I want to show only one colorI could I use an "one-sided tissue foil" (foil-tissue paper) for the models that at the end you already know that they will only show the desired color (to be sure of this you can refer to the book that shows the two different colors, usually white and gray, as the colors of your model), or perhaps to show a more lucid part if both colors are shown in the final model (for example, in the origami shop there are colored foil rollers). I mean, apart from the color, It would be able to fold well?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Splunge » April 17th, 2019, 8:56 am

Wether a single MC treated sheet of tissue paper folds well cannot be answered with yes or no. It basically depends on the experience and patience of the folder.

As written before, single tissue paper is softer. The paper doesn't support reversing a fold well and has to be done slowly. Tensile strenght is weaker as well.

But it's still possible and I didn't find it too hard. But I can only speak for one model so far.
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Baltorigamist » April 17th, 2019, 9:37 pm

It also depends on what kind of tissue you're using. Standard tissue (treated with MC) is definitely more fragile, but papers such as kozo are a lot stronger, albeit a bit thicker (and they also require MC before folding).

Airos -> Single-sided TF is definitely an option, but you'll have to be careful with the foil layers showing. And I personally would not recommend the Origami-Shop foil rollers for anything complex (aside from the gold and silver).
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Airos Veyn » April 18th, 2019, 1:48 am

Ok. Also I wanted to know, (to understand exactly what size to buy the sheets) when you treat with mc the sheet is resized, so this also means that it gets smaller?
Finally, for thin papers is better a larger or smaller rotary cutter (in mm)?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Baltorigamist » April 18th, 2019, 2:02 am

Some papers expand, some shrink, and some remain roughly the same size. In my experience, a sheet of Origamido can even expand in one direction and shrink in the other.
In essence, it’s best to buy as large a sheet as you can cut.

While I don’t use rotary cutters, I imagine a larger one would wear out more slowly. A regular Xacto knife blade lasts for months or years, though.
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Airos Veyn » April 18th, 2019, 2:38 am

But, if for example we treat a 50x50 sheet with mc, and reach about 49 cm, the difference is marginal. I mean the sizes in any case shouldn't change so much, right?
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Re: What is the best type of paper for the most complex orig

Postby Splunge » April 18th, 2019, 7:23 am

I would never cut the paper first and then treat it with MC. As Baltorigamist wrote, the paper may warp in different directions. It is highly unlikely that you will still have a perfect square afterwards.

And 1cm offset over 50cm is very significant, especially for complex models.

My recommendation is to buy a large, uncut sheet of tissue paper (usually comes in 50x70), treat it with MC and then cut it to a square of maximum possible size. For the later I use hardboard templates, cut to individual sizes, from the local hardware store.

Regarding paper brand: in another posting on this board someone recommended SatinWrap. I tried it recently and can confirm that it is the best tissue paper I used so far with respect to MC treatment and foldability. I can highly recommend it.

Regarding cutters: I prefer roll cutters as I see the risk, that a regular cutter could rip thin paper, if the blade isn't sharp anymore. I use an Olfa roll cutter with a blade diameter of 45mm. Same blade since a couple of years and no issues so far.
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