Vertex assigned CP's

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wolf
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Post by wolf »

Yes, there's an even simpler example to disprove my first point: a preliminary base with corner grafts! Hmm, scratch that "trivial" case then. :D

I'm not sure the second point is just a coincidence; it seems to hold for the three VACPs I've seen so far. I can't come up with a counterexample yet either.

For vertex assignments, first, well, you'll need at least two vertices. Then I think all that matters are just the relative genders of the vertices. Flipping the paper over converts everything to its opposite, but still keeps the relative genders the same. If we use paper coloured differently on two sides, then white side up can be a convention. Once we do that, we can define an M-vertex as one where the white side is facing out, and a V-vertex as one where the white side is in.
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Post by OrigamiMagiro »

wolf wrote:I'm not sure the second point is just a coincidence; it seems to hold for the three VACPs I've seen so far. I can't come up with a counterexample yet either.
Actually, I now agree with you, as the proof is trivial:
From Maekawa's Theorem we know that there must be an even number of vertices extending from a node. Let A be the number of m vertices and B be the number of v vertices. Since A + B is even, A and B must either be both even or both odd, and it follows that A - B must always be an even number.

To also answer Boaz's second point, I agree Eileen's definition that an v vertex is defined as showing one side/color of the paper when folded independently from the model, and similarly, an m vertex would show the other. The definition is with respect to the different sides of the paper and to the orientation of the paper from which we start. I realize the example I posted was convoluted, but it is to demonstrate how one could take advantage of this vertex assignment to convey the wanted model.
bshuval wrote:Third, not all vertices can be designated m or v... Think of a simple twist. The vertices are as much m as they are v. An even simpler example is a kite fold...
I disagree; when one has a vertex on a folded model (a vertex having at least 4 creases emanating from it) it must have an inside and an outside. Think of an ice-cream cone: a folded vertex must have an inside and an outside, just as the cone does.

Even the vertices of a twist fold, when folded independently from the rest of the model have an inside and outside if they indeed be foldable vertices, and thus have the possibility of labeling them as either "m" or "v".

The kite fold raises some questions. When labeling edge vertices, one must question the gender of the edge of the paper itself. Also, one must point out that any set of creases emanating from an edge vertex can be made to be flat foldable, regardless of Maekawa's of Kawasaki's Theorems (I am ignoring the layer overlap problem that exists because the Theorems verify properties of flat-foldable vertices but are not exclusive to all vertices. i.e. flat-foldable vertices follow the theorems, but not all vertices that follow the theorems are flat-foldable.) Since 360 deg of paper does not exist for these points, they prove to be the exception. If the vertices do not have to follow the theorems, can they be labeled?

I propose that they can, and I will define their gender in this way: Were one to reflect an image of the entire crease pattern over the edge in question, then what would the node's gender be? Actually, this method of identification should only work for uni-axial bases/vertices, as that will assure that all edge creases lie on the same line when folded.

Thus under this definition, the kite fold has but one definable vertex, the symmetrically middle one, as it's edges lie on the same line when folded. The other two are just single creases through the edge of the paper. I would argue that in single crease cases, one could just label the vertex by the gender of the single crease (which is what I believe I have done in previous circumstances?). Thus, were one to fold a kite fold, I would label all three vertices with the same gender, the choice of which obviously involves how one folded the kite fold.

An interesting point to discuss here, though, is what if one folded one half of the kite fold forward (Valley-fold) and the other back (Mountain-fold). When observed, this resulting point would be not one, but both colors! WTF would this vertex be? Again, this is a special "edge case" that would not be encountered in the center, as one can not create a whole in the center of the paper (many people know that one can not create color changes from the center of the paper). I am not sure how to identify such an edge vertex.

I would like to hear more thoughts on creating a more general definition of vertex assignment. I believe now that all interior vertices are definable and that most normal edge vertices are. What about the weird color changes? Do edge vertices need to be defined at all? Is it helpful?

Thoughts?
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Post by bshuval »

Alright, I think that I now understand what m-vertices and v-vertices are. My understanding is as follows (assuming the vertex is not on an edge). Let us take a local perspective, and cut-out the vertex from the rest of the model. We then open it out, and put it on the table, color side down. If the resulting point point out, it is an m-vertex; if it points down, it is a v-vertex.

This way I agree that every vertex not on an edge can be classified as m or v.

Now I would like to make a conjecture, and propose an alternative definition for m and v vertices (again, not on edges). It is well known (Maekawa's theorem) that the difference between the number of mountains and the number of valleys about a vertex is either 2 or -2. Denote by M the number of mountains and by V the number of valleys about a vertex. Then I claim (without proof, which makes it a conjecture :-) ) that the vertex is an m-vertex if M-V=2 and a v-vertex if M-V=-2.

It really seems logical that the two cases of Maekawa's theorem would divide vertices between m and v. Of course this needs proof, but I have been unable to come up with one so far. This alternative definition is something that is uniquely decided from the gender of the creases, and does not rely on human understanding of whether the color is pointing in and out.

As for edge vertices, I propose that they do not have m or v assignment. I simply don't see the need, and as Jason pointed out -- they can be undefined...
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Post by Brimstone »

bshuval wrote: As for edge vertices, I propose that they do not have m or v assignment. I simply don't see the need, and as Jason pointed out -- they can be undefined...
Maybe it seems unnecesary by now and maybe Jason was too kind to put dots on all vertices even the ones on the edge, but what about when the method is done for complex models with many points along the edges (insects maybe)? Adding a few more dots does not seem that difficult. At least they should be put there for those vertices with more than one crease.

If the convention of noting only one type of vertices (I'd go for convex or mountain vertices) is followed, the work would be even less (I was going to say would be only half of it, but the number of vertices does not follow that rule)
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Post by Brimstone »

Roberto Gretter had used a similar method for his
turtle around the time of this threead started. I asked him if he had come with the idea himself and here's his answer:

"for what I remember, I came up with this type of problems (up or down)
with the budinaia bowl and fab fior, to disambiguate among convex and concave
(see diagrams here : http://ditelo.itc.it/people/gretter/diagrammi.html ).
in this case, I used just a + and - sign to indicate the positive/negative curvature
of a portion of paper. something very similar was used before by Leong Chen Chit,
who also did lot of work with curved surfaces. I read - for sure years before
the turle - a couple of pages by him and probably saw some diagram in which he
uses + e - symbols. if you want, I can check.
for the turtle it is slightly different, no more convex/concave surfaces (each triangle
is flat) but vertex up and down, co I came out with that symbol by my own. however,
I'm pretty sure that some people working with tassellations could have found something
similar in the past, but I don't have resources to check.
by teaching the turtle I realized it was necessary to include this information
in the diagrams, otherwise it is nearly impossible to disambiguate, and the closed
model is very likely to result wrong.

when I published turtle diagrams (in a CDO magazine) I also wrote a couple of
pages (in Italian) about optical illusions and the need for such a symbol. If you
are interested, I can sent itr to you.

I didn't saw jet Jason's solution, which is also good if you can have colors (no
black & white printers or photocopies)

let me know if you need more info

ciaooo
Roberto"

Has anyone seen Leong Chen Chit's notation or know what model Roberto is talking about?
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wolf
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Post by wolf »

Here's a quote from John McKeever, on a Fujimoto thingy he posted just recently on his flickr album:
JMcK wrote:
Convex/concave points aren’t marked, but if more valleys than mountains converge at a point it’s concave. If more mountains than valleys converge at a point it’s convex. Correct convex/concave orientation is very important when you’re trying to collapse the model.
Now that's a very interesting observation, and I wonder if it's always true (or at least, always true in certain well defined situations). If so, I suspect that a combination of this and the Kawasaki and Maekawa theorems will allow a VACP to be readily generated from a standard CP.

It'll be interesting to test this out for various existing CPs that have mountain/valley assignment (pretty much all of those on Lang's website, and some Treemakered CPs). Even if a CP doesn't have the mountain/valley assignment, it should be possible to start at one corner of the CP, work out the M/V assignment, then propagate that, as well as the vertex assignment, along the rest of the CP.
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Post by Brimstone »

Well someone on this same thread said before: "For every node, count the number of mountain nodes and then count the number of valley nodes - their difference is either zero, or an even number. I suspect the reason for this lies in Maekawa's theorem. " So I guess we are on to something.

Don't you remember that you (Wolf) posted this?
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Post by MacGyver »

The CP for tanaka masashi's dice is bicolor :
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Oa ... su.html#p1

Is that of any help ?
not a beginner - complex model folder - own designs - 23 - French
future origami master ^_^
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Post by Brimstone »

So I wrote to Roberto and Leong again and they clarified things.

Leong used "O" and "X" notations to differenciate between cocave and convex vertices, but he used those signs in diagrams not CP's.

The method is valid for any kind of origami explanation being it (CP or diagram). I just wished more authors used it.
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