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Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: November 24th, 2012, 11:15 pm
by merman
Folded the model from the book twice now. The wings are just impossible... let alone in mirror image...

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: November 28th, 2012, 3:23 am
by kereba
Are the diagrams not clear?

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: December 21st, 2012, 11:18 pm
by YeRo
Hello there. I'm having some problems with this model. I don't understand how to crimp in step 38. I mean, it looks more like sinks but its still strange. Can someone give me a clue?

Image

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Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: December 22nd, 2012, 12:10 am
by kereba
i'm sorry to tell you that those diagrams are completely wrong, it is badly drawn. the best advice is photo-diagrams from Chinese forums or pm message me.w

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: December 22nd, 2012, 12:48 am
by Langko
Harpseal wrote:how do you get it if it's something annoying like 37? Thanks in advance

Grid of 37 is done by so...
Image
excuse the sloppiness, i drew it in paint as it was the best software i have on me at the moment...
The reference for the circled area is 5/32 from the bottom of the page. The vertical line that you get is now 5/37 from the right of the square. Divide the area left of that vertical line into 32 and the area right of that vertical line into 5 and there you have it... A grid of 37.
Hope that makes sense :D

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: December 22nd, 2012, 11:50 am
by Harpseal
It does, thanks. :)

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: December 27th, 2012, 5:05 pm
by bethnor
kereba wrote:Are the diagrams not clear?


ryan isn't saying, but i guess his difficulty is circa step 104-8. you are going off the creases here, which would make most folders uncomfortable, and on its face, it seems that the pleats you make don't appear as long as kamiya's.

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: December 30th, 2012, 2:41 am
by dinogami
The diagrams are actually pretty clear (at least, to me!), but the collapse is very problematic. I am finding that getting the new edge formed by the crease in step 104 to line up against the far layer, as depicted in step 108, is neither easy nor intuitive, so re-pleating in step 108 to get the smooth arrangement seen in subsequent steps ends up rather messy. That said, I find the intent to make the outer primary feathers longer with respect to the secondaries admirable and ingenious! I never saw it in either photos of the model or in the crease pattern, and I liked discovering it in the diagrams. :)

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: January 2nd, 2013, 11:14 am
by bethnor
dinogami wrote:The diagrams are actually pretty clear (at least, to me!), but the collapse is very problematic.


i think the diagrams could be clearer. instinctively, i think most ppl will make the valley fold on 105 on the pre-existing crease. but, as far as i can tell, it is not possible to get the pleat to look as long as it does in later pictures if you do. you should make a new crease. but i also have a feeling it sort of doesn't matter, and that you can proceed even if it doesn't match the diagrams exactly. and, imho, it should say so... it's otherwise disorienting to get far and so your model doesn't look the same.

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: January 9th, 2013, 1:58 am
by bethnor
ironic. this has to be one of the most requested models of all time. and now that official diagrams are out... no one is trying? it seems the only people who have folded it are the folks who could do it from cp! i'm just curious if others have run into these difficulties, and what they're doing to circumvent them.

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: January 11th, 2013, 3:22 am
by Bubo
Gotta admit I tried it (70 cm Unryushi) and was fine up until about step 179. The amount of bad creases I had put in adjusting the pleats and the way the wings started to unravel as I attempted the unsinks made me quit my first attempt. I'll try it again sometime but I have to agree that folding the wings according to the diagrams is "very challenging".

Right now Eco Origami has more of my attention. These models are very different to any others Ive tried (most like David Brill's work I'd say). Although they're very organic the diagrams are thorough enough that good results are possible pretty much straight away to anyone familiar with wet folding.

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: January 12th, 2013, 9:16 am
by bethnor
for those having difficulty. first off, though kamiya recommends 50 cm, i suggest a larger sheet. the model is definitely doable with 50 cm, but the details of the head get annoyingly small. OTOH, avoid using a sheet that is too large. one of the really annoying thing when you are trying to work on the hardest part (the wings) is that the tail keeps getting in the way! if you use nicolas terry foil, i highly highly recommend taping the tail from the point to the breast of the model--the base of the tail gets really thick, and will tear easily during the final "braiding." also, i do not recommend that you use something expensive the first time you try this model. i think you will have to practice it several times before you get the wings to your taste.

use the preexisting crease in 105 to guide you in make 104.

there may be significant distorting by 107, and the open sink will not be "clean." this is okay. you will unsink this later and it won't matter. the open sink appears really to just get this flap out of the way.

steps 174 onward, it does not need to completely match the diagrams. don't throw away your work. proceed. depending on how you did the pleats circa 104-106, it may not match. you should be able to proceed regardless. keep practicing until you get the wings to your taste.

VERY IMPORTANT at step 176. make sure you grasp the center axis of the layers and keep them from drifting as you shift them over the next few steps. the paper is very thick at this point and there is a natural tendency towards drift. the more it drifts, the more it will look different and you will become worried you are doing something wrong.

VERY IMPORTANT, each time you shift the layers at 177, make the creases as sharp as you can. this is hard because the paper will be very thick. btw, the best way of thinking of step 177 is a squash fold, not just a shifting of layers. stick a long, thin object into the pleats to help you spread the layers as evenly as possible. this is very much like step 82 of the cerberus.

avoid the temptation of making the "shifts" of 177 too large in an attempt to "match" the diagrams. the larger the shift, the smaller the pleats will end up being, and you will have less room to do the reverse fold-reverse folds of 195-6.

the reason why you want to make the creases at 177 as sharp as possible is because in 178-180, you are simply reversing those creases.

good luck!

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 11:02 pm
by Baltorigamist
Thanks for the advice. Been trying this model with 38cm paper, which might be too small, but I haven't had any trouble as of step 112.

Though it seems the paper I've been using--foil backed parchment paper--works really well. It's very strong, albeit a little thick, but there haven't been any issues yet.
(Yet. :lol:)

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: February 4th, 2013, 10:59 pm
by kereba
http://www.flickr.com/photos/baldorigami/8445065431/in/photostream

Can anyone tell me the difference between these two CP of the Phoenix what difference does the red circled part make

Re: Satoshi Kamiya - Phoenix Help Topics

PostPosted: February 5th, 2013, 4:37 am
by Langko
It doesn't make any difference which way you fold it. Those layers get hidden inside the wing anyway :)