yes, there aren't enough origami giraffes.
just goes to prove my hypothesis that anything kamiya gets this disproportionate drooling reaction that's almost comical. i mean, is this giraffe really THAT much better than berniacki's (available for free), montroll's, or komatsu's?
Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
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Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
Kamiya's Giraffe is the best among all!!
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
no. not even close.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
Komatsu giraffe is waaaaay better than Kamiya's
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
I notice that you have pictures of Kamiya's giraffe on your Flickr, but none of Komatsu's.Froy wrote:Komatsu giraffe is waaaaay better than Kamiya's
Personally, in terms of realism, I would say that Kamiya's is better than the Komatsu's, and the other's that Bethnor mentioned. Montroll's lacks the hump, Biernacki's seems disproportionate, Komatsu's (which I like) has a more open back and a shorter neck. Dave Brill has a good closed back model, but without a hump.
I would say that Gabriel Alvarez's model (in the AEP 2003 book) is as good as Kamiya's.
In terms of the basic shape and form, most giraffe designs will do the job. But given how subjective these things are, it's not surprising that people prefer Kamiya's model over others.
I'd take Komatsu's diagrams over Kamiya's CP, but when the diagrams are available, I'd like to fold it.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
no hump?!!! oh noes!!!!Falcifer wrote:
Personally, in terms of realism, I would say that Kamiya's is better than the Komatsu's, and the other's that Bethnor mentioned. Montroll's lacks the hump, Biernacki's seems disproportionate, Komatsu's (which I like) has a more open back and a shorter neck. Dave Brill has a good closed back model, but without a hump.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
It may just be me, but it seems like a lot of your posts are negative or cynical in some way.bethnor wrote:no hump?!!! oh noes!!!!
The fact is that giraffes have a hump. An origami model of a giraffe with a hump is therefore more realistic. If you look closely, you will notice that I was talking about realism when I mentioned the hump.
I did also say that "in terms of the basic shape and form, most giraffe designs will do the job." So I'm not saying that a hump is a necessary part of a good giraffe model. Indeed, I do like Komatsu's and Alvarez's. Brill's is good, too. Gen Hagiwara and Quentin Trollip also have good giraffe models. I'm certainly not dismissing anyone else's model here. If anything, I would say that Quentin's is the best I've seen. Based purely on the pictures of the model.
If you don't like Kamiya's, that's fine. You seem to be under the impression that the only reason that anyone would like one of Kamiya's models is because it's a Kamiya model, yet you seem to hate his models for the same reason. You also seem to be trying to convince everyone else that his model isn't as good as they think. Without even giving a reason.
If you'd care to explain why his model is "not even close" to being "the best among all" (euroboy's comment that you were replying to) I'd be interested to hear what's so wrong with it. Do you have the diagrams already? Is the folding sequence the issue? I could understand if the number and/or difficulty of the steps involved outweighed the quality of the final model but that would, again, be quite a subjective thing.
Or do you just have trouble understanding how anyone else could have an opinion different from your own?
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
Well said!
While I hold Komatsu's Giraffe in very high regard - the head and nose are especially well formed (better than Kamiya's IMO) and the folding sequence is delightful - Kamiya's version has a more realistic profile and better 3D shaping than Komatu's. There is more to judging a models worth than just "realism" but to suggest that Kamiya's is "not even close" to Komatsu's, once again, "beggars belief".
We should all be free to comment on anyones models according to our (hopefully justified) beliefs but there can be no arguing that Kamiya deserves the communities respect for his commitment to producing high quality designs and diagrams for folders, who are not up to CPs, to enjoy year after year - especially as he is on record as saying that he does not like diagramming.
While I hold Komatsu's Giraffe in very high regard - the head and nose are especially well formed (better than Kamiya's IMO) and the folding sequence is delightful - Kamiya's version has a more realistic profile and better 3D shaping than Komatu's. There is more to judging a models worth than just "realism" but to suggest that Kamiya's is "not even close" to Komatsu's, once again, "beggars belief".
We should all be free to comment on anyones models according to our (hopefully justified) beliefs but there can be no arguing that Kamiya deserves the communities respect for his commitment to producing high quality designs and diagrams for folders, who are not up to CPs, to enjoy year after year - especially as he is on record as saying that he does not like diagramming.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
i have been very clear. i like kamiya just fine. in fact, i just decorated my office with several of his models. i'll state it again: just goes to prove my hypothesis that anything kamiya gets this disproportionate drooling reaction that's almost comical. there can be no doubt about kamiya's ability as a designer, but that his products axiomatically seem to be the best, an observation that is not infrequently at least implied, is hyperbole to the nth degree.Falcifer wrote: If you don't like Kamiya's, that's fine. You seem to be under the impression that the only reason that anyone would like one of Kamiya's models is because it's a Kamiya model, yet you seem to hate his models for the same reason. You also seem to be trying to convince everyone else that his model isn't as good as they think. Without even giving a reason.
If you'd care to explain why his model is "not even close" to being "the best among all" (euroboy's comment that you were replying to) I'd be interested to hear what's so wrong with it. Do you have the diagrams already? Is the folding sequence the issue? I could understand if the number and/or difficulty of the steps involved outweighed the quality of the final model but that would, again, be quite a subjective thing.
first off, euroboy was the one who famously complained that we got cerberus v1.1 instead of v1. oh noes. he further asserts (without evidence) that kamiya's giraffe is the best. as greater minds than me have stated, what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed as summarily, which is exactly what i did. sorry you don't like it.
second, why is it axiomatically that you go to realism as the appropriate meter by which to judge these models? almost by definition, komatsu would never be the "best" in such a category because that rarely (if ever) appears to be his aim--rather, it is a fusion of appealing geometry and complexity. because of this ridiculous simplification, it's literally a hump that makes all the difference (kamiya, by a hump!).
i'll repeat it again, since you disliked it so much: no, kamiya does not have the best giraffe, not by a long shot. that's like saying someone has designed the best origami rabbit (by the way, many posters here behave as if kamiya has designed the best origami rabbit). or the best origami swan. or the best origami elephant. the use of the term, "best," implies falsely that origami is a contest that can be won, which has produced the dumbest, most pointless thread this board has ever seen. and seriously, have you seen and folded all the origami giraffes out there? at best, kamiya's giraffe is a fine addition to an overstocked field. if you and euroboy happen to like it more because it has a better neck to body ratio and a hump, bullocks for you. but that doesn't mean it's the best, not by a long shot. are you really suggesting that the structural and artistic differences between these models are sooooooooooo drastic that you can tier them that way? best of luck to you.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
you keep repeating this, bubo. i'm free to comment on your commenting and vice versa. deal.Bubo wrote:
We should all be free to comment on anyones models according to our (hopefully justified)
where have i stated otherwise? the only thing i HAVE stated is the axiomatic fanboy drooling is ridiculous. you know, beethoven had to catch the train once awhile, and put out crap. the same is true of any artist. you'll get used to it, i'm sure.beliefs but there can be no arguing that Kamiya deserves the communities respect for his commitment
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
I truly hope we can keep the conversation civil and that we can consider respectfully each other persons point of view. Two things I'd like to address.
1. What I found confronting about your response, Bethnor, to Euroboy was that Kamiya's Giraffe was "not even close" to being the best, and you cited some other giraffe's that you thought were better. You've reasserted this in your response to Falcifer: "not by a long shot". Yet when I look at the two of them side by side there really isn't a lot of difference in the finished models (folding sequence is another issue). You yourself have said, IMO rightly, that theres basically a "humps difference". But surely if there's a humps difference you would have to conclude that Kamiya's giraffe is at least close to "as good" as Komatsu's if not necessarily better. If not, then I am genuinely interested in why you think Kamiya's is not at least close to either Komatu's or the others you mentioned.
2. The question of whether origami can be judged is an interesting one and I don't think it can be dismissed out of hand as impossible. Certainly art in general can be judged and is by art critics every day. They work with criteria and comparison and while subjectivity makes absolute statements all but impossible it is possible to discriminate between good works of art, bad works of art and works of a similar quality. Judgements are difficult when people disagree on the criteria or the weightings that they should have, which I believe is at the heart of this discussion. Again I am genuinely interested to hear what Bethnor, or anyone else for that matter, hold do be important criteria and, more importantly what weighting they give them. I'm already on record somewhere as saying that realism is a criteria that factors fairly high on my list (not to be confused with complexity) although it is not the only one and it is my personal preference not something that I would insist others subscribe to.
1. What I found confronting about your response, Bethnor, to Euroboy was that Kamiya's Giraffe was "not even close" to being the best, and you cited some other giraffe's that you thought were better. You've reasserted this in your response to Falcifer: "not by a long shot". Yet when I look at the two of them side by side there really isn't a lot of difference in the finished models (folding sequence is another issue). You yourself have said, IMO rightly, that theres basically a "humps difference". But surely if there's a humps difference you would have to conclude that Kamiya's giraffe is at least close to "as good" as Komatsu's if not necessarily better. If not, then I am genuinely interested in why you think Kamiya's is not at least close to either Komatu's or the others you mentioned.
2. The question of whether origami can be judged is an interesting one and I don't think it can be dismissed out of hand as impossible. Certainly art in general can be judged and is by art critics every day. They work with criteria and comparison and while subjectivity makes absolute statements all but impossible it is possible to discriminate between good works of art, bad works of art and works of a similar quality. Judgements are difficult when people disagree on the criteria or the weightings that they should have, which I believe is at the heart of this discussion. Again I am genuinely interested to hear what Bethnor, or anyone else for that matter, hold do be important criteria and, more importantly what weighting they give them. I'm already on record somewhere as saying that realism is a criteria that factors fairly high on my list (not to be confused with complexity) although it is not the only one and it is my personal preference not something that I would insist others subscribe to.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
I would also be interested in why Froy thinks Komatsu's is "waaaaay" better. With what criteria do you reach this conclusion?
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
Bethnor:
1. Where is this drooling reaction that you mention? Euroboy's fame hasn't quite reached me yet, and his comment came after yours, so if you'd be kind enough to point out the axiomatic drooling reaction from the year-old thread, it might clear things up.
2. What's wrong with Kamiya's model? It being far from the best, it must have some major flaws. I'm interested to know your own criteria for what makes the other models so much better. (Despite what you said about trying to define what's "best").
3. What's the problem with people liking this model? Or any of Kamiya's models? You talk about hyperbole and then apparently tar everyone with the same brush. Just because someone likes a model, doesn't mean it's simply because of the designer. For all the people who only care about it being a Kamiya model, don't you also think that there are some who appreciate it on its own merits?
I had a longer response to your post but it seems to me that you deliberately avoid any part of a post that you don't like and focus on exaggerating the parts that you disagree with. Feels like you are just trying to elicit hostility, so I'm going to await your answers before posting my full response.
1. Where is this drooling reaction that you mention? Euroboy's fame hasn't quite reached me yet, and his comment came after yours, so if you'd be kind enough to point out the axiomatic drooling reaction from the year-old thread, it might clear things up.
2. What's wrong with Kamiya's model? It being far from the best, it must have some major flaws. I'm interested to know your own criteria for what makes the other models so much better. (Despite what you said about trying to define what's "best").
3. What's the problem with people liking this model? Or any of Kamiya's models? You talk about hyperbole and then apparently tar everyone with the same brush. Just because someone likes a model, doesn't mean it's simply because of the designer. For all the people who only care about it being a Kamiya model, don't you also think that there are some who appreciate it on its own merits?
I had a longer response to your post but it seems to me that you deliberately avoid any part of a post that you don't like and focus on exaggerating the parts that you disagree with. Feels like you are just trying to elicit hostility, so I'm going to await your answers before posting my full response.
Re: Satoshi Kamiya Giraffe.
My giraffe. office paper 21x21 cm. diagram by Satoshi Kamia.
