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PostPosted: October 26th, 2005, 10:40 pm
by wolf
JMcK wrote:Also, people often precrease a whole pattern and then collapse it all at once, without working out a standard folding sequence.

To add to what John's just said, sometimes there isn't even a standard folding sequence for some of the CPs out there. It's already fairly tedious work to diagram standard folds, and to diagram some of the more finger-contorting 3D folds required for the weird CPs would be even worse - you'd first have to find a viewpoint that works, and then diagram that, and even then, 99% of the time you'd still have something that looks completely unrelated to the actual folding sequence.

PostPosted: October 26th, 2005, 11:06 pm
by sabrigami
Wow, I loved that bat, I'm so going to fold it. anyway sorry Joseph. I didn't know you didn't want to be called that :oops: . you're just so good and I'm not used to calling people by thier first names (I was taught that was rude). I know many artsits don't choose to do diagrams, I wasn't implying that ot fight them on that. but I know there are others, like the people on the link who make diagrams for you. I most certainly cannot create diagrams, but I can draw them (if someone tells me what to do). despite the fact my origami skills are shoddy, my drawing skills are excellent, in pencil and on computer. I was sort of saying that. if someone would send me instructions for example, I would try to make a diagram. :wink: .

PostPosted: October 26th, 2005, 11:11 pm
by origami_8
sabrigami wrote:if someone would send me instructions for example, I would try to make a diagram.

If I should ever have something to diagram, I will come back on this :D
But since I´m very poor on creating I don´t think that this will ever be happen :(

PostPosted: October 26th, 2005, 11:17 pm
by Joseph Wu
sabrigami wrote:anyway sorry Joseph. I didn't know you didn't want to be called that :oops: . you're just so good and I'm not used to calling people by thier first names (I was taught that was rude).

No worries. It's not big deal, more of an in-joke here on the forum. Anna & Wolf like to tease me about it.

PostPosted: October 26th, 2005, 11:17 pm
by sabrigami
I would love to help people on stuff like that. I just can't create it ya know, so if you did have somthing like that, I'd love to. All I want is to make it easier for peolpe, including myself :wink: . I was just talking about a middle way so to speak. I wasn't suggesting any more works for the artists.

PostPosted: October 26th, 2005, 11:40 pm
by sabrigami
It can even be just taking pictures of the step and saying "crease fold here" I understand things like that well, and I'm good at summarizing ( as long as it's clear and has all the necessary inforamtion. And what Wolf was saying is true, crease pattens just don't tell you how to really fold it. and I'm looking for those steps. That's the part that needs work, though that spanish site has interesting info, I was suggesting a place where people actually MAKE those diagrams for those awesome cps :) , even if it means doing them myself. I really don't like being restrained by those cps. but that's where origami's going :cry: . but I could use help solving them, but I've got lot's of time to draw (my job is very nice on my schedule) and I'm always looking for stuff to do.

PostPosted: October 27th, 2005, 1:44 am
by wolf
Well, it's not that CP's don't tell you how to fold them, but rather, not all CPs can be reduced into a series of standard folds. By 'standard folds', I'm referring to steps like 'reverse fold here', 'sink there', instead of 'open up and collapse on the lines shown'. And the problem with the latter category of steps is that they're extremely hard to diagram, since it's often a (pseudo)3D view of what you have to do.

For 3D-challenged people like me, these steps are the ones which stop me from diagramming stuff. Of course, now that we've got instant digital camera technology, such steps can simply be photographed and used either in place of the step, or as a method of drawing the intermediate step itself.

PostPosted: October 27th, 2005, 3:54 am
by sabrigami
Well all I can say is, I hope that people will still continue to diagram even if it is difficult :? . but no matter how much I think about it I think I will have more luck creating my own than solving a cp. (why I just tried to fold some cps tonite with absolutly no avail :? ). I just hope there still be daigrams (of hopefully more complex models :D ) out there in the future. I just really don't think this cp is working. maybe they should just take pictures or movies of them folding things and put little notes and tips. but I still hope something better will come along other than cps :? . because even though most of the origami I try ends up messed at some point I love being able to try. Besides, I just ordered the Works of Satoshi Kamiya, I so want to try that dragon :D . Thank you for helping me and the websites you guys have given are great for info. and Wolf, your tutorials really do help especially the one on how to design your own stuff.

PostPosted: October 27th, 2005, 4:26 am
by wolf
Oh, believe me, a lot of us would like to diagram our models, just so we can get it published and get high from the resulting ego boost. :D The problem is that it often takes so long that a lot of us (myself included) would either get too bored or impatient to see it through. Besides, we'd much rather be folding or designing new stuff. Diagramming even an 'easy' complex model (like the CP that Anna keeps going on about) can take a good 6-8 hours, and there's this thing called 'real-life' that keeps getting in the way too... :shock:

And yes, CPs are annoyingly difficult and the learning curve is extremely steep. Brimstone and a few of us looked into something called 'vertex-assigned CPs' for a while; we never really got it off the ground because there didn't seem to be much interest and no one had the time to assign vertices to existing CPs. The thread is still around somewhere, do a search for it and see if it works for you as an alternate way of cracking CPs. I've been meaning to do some VACPs for a while now, but you know how it is... :D

PostPosted: October 27th, 2005, 11:19 am
by esato
Talking about CPs, I was able to follow Wolf´s Tutorial up to Kamiya Satoshi´s Chocobo. I managed to fold every CP up to that one, but got stuck there. I could make all the pre creases, that was pretty straightforward. I just could not collapse it!

The problem is that the pictures available at Kamiya´s website are small and not very illustrative. I was able to find some other pictures of this model by googling, but each of them had a different finishing. Is there any picture of the base without any finishing? I really want to be able to fold that model so that I can continue to follow Wolf´s tutorial. Any clues ?

PostPosted: October 29th, 2005, 3:39 am
by Brimstone
sabrigami wrote:Thanks for the tip but I've actually seen it before, as well as the tutorials on they are helpfull, and they did help me progress alittle, but I just don't know why there aren't full solutions out there for every body. So you don't have to be good at crease patterns. I know people love solving those things, but I like just folding the model, not figuring out how to do it. but that's all the really cool models have these days :( .

Do you even know what you are talking about?
Have you ever tried diagramming a 100+ steps model?

Who would want to do that for free? (Yes I know Carlos Furuti did one of the many models that have CP's.)

PostPosted: October 30th, 2005, 5:21 am
by Morgan
hmm it is interesting...."do it for free"? it sounds like all you care about is money, not artistic expression. (and that may not be true..this isnt a personal attack against you specifically. well why do anything at all besides sleep for money? i think cash (and this may be off topic so i apologize in advance) i think money is wrong..and should NOT be the reason to do ANYTHING.... helping people and living as a greater community is the new and oil are nothing but blinders keeping us all on the track, i mean there are many great feilds for us to explore... so much more than the "rat" race. i know we all need to pay rent and eat and all of that, but imagine if everyone kept doing exactly what they are doing now....with goals and ambitions included, but take away money, make everything status, no elevation over another person for reasons none other than money..and more importantly, you would be free to do what you wanted.....did the ancient text writers complain when they wrote the original origami texts? i am sure it took them a reallly long time. but it is for the PASSION and Love of each others knowledge and the ambition to see everyone succeed, and i think more people should put themselfs out by helping other people...especially when they dont have to...ESPECIALLY when it comes to an art form....... you cannot put a price on a form of personaly expression, only the instructions and materials..and i think that is kind of messed up. ( again i apologize or the just makes me mad when someone gives an excuse for not wanting to do somthing <which by the way is perfectly fine if you dont want to do somthing, that is your own choice> and that excuse is should NOT be the core of this planet...)

PostPosted: October 30th, 2005, 5:27 am
by Brimstone
Beautiful thoughts

Now welcome to the real world

PostPosted: October 30th, 2005, 4:46 pm
by Morgan
ya, i know that is not how it really works.. but it will never change if no one ever thinks of new ideas, and if people are too stubburn to not change their own ideas