Monthly Folding Challenge: October 2011

[Argonaut]

The root of the problem here is that no one knew the judging preference ahead of time. There is no right or wrong judging style, but it is unfair that the more complex models lost for the sole reason that the judge preferred simple models.

It is for this reason that I stand resolved: the judge should pre-announce all judging preferences and paradigms.

This way we will be able to determine the best folding style to approach the challenge rather than making it a flip of the coin whether or not you get it right.

Or better: We should host a poll like we do in duels.

[kareshi]

Once again, my designs were not created with this challenge in mind, so I'm indifferent to my work being judged for it. I do think it's strange that the judge rejected complexity when "ubercomplex insect" is listed as an option IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE CHALLENGE.
I about agree with the statement that the judge went for models she "could understand." If you don't understand how certain models came from a traditional base, doesn't that demonstrate creative use of the limitation?

[Julien Gritte]

Please, would you stay a little bit less condescendent ? you don't know the judge and we are all polite & adult. Aren't we?
If we dislike the judgment of our models, put out the judging in month's challenges & keep it, like argonaut said, for the duels. Or don't present our models, especially if we didn't work on a model for the challenge. Or accept the judgement, whatever it is. Try to understand & try to be better ourselves next time.

[chris_t]

I'm with Julien. I really don't get where all this criticism of the judging is coming from. Of course it is subjective - that is the nature of having an individual judge. I think to enter into a light-hearted, friendly competition such as this (or even not enter it!) and then start criticising the judging is crazy. You are free to disagree with the decision in your own mind (particularly since there is no prize other than glory) but to say it is wrong seems to me to be saying that your subjective judgement is better than someone else's.

If the judge were to have stated in advance that they preferred simple models (note: preferred, not required - who's to say that a sufficiently impressive complex entry would not have wooed her?) then how would that have helped? There would still have been lots of entries, and the judge would have had to come up with new criteria to separate those, which no doubt some people would again disagree with, and say they should have been stated in advance.

Personally I like the fact that there is a judge rather than a poll. I think it makes the competition more open, as we don't know exactly what to expect. Each judge is a bit different, so you get a range of different types of model winning each month. It means that someone less practised and confident like myself can enter and still feel like we have a tiny bit of a chance. I think if it were decided by poll, we would end up with very similar models winning each week.

[healatequila]

Please, would you stay a little bit less condescendent ? you don't know the judge and we are all polite & adult. Aren't we?
If we dislike the judgment of our models, put out the judging in month's challenges & keep it, like argonaut said, for the duels. Or don't present our models, especially if we didn't work on a model for the challenge. Or accept the judgement, whatever it is. Try to understand & try to be better ourselves next time.

I think you misunderstand what Argonaut was saying, I think Argonaut was saying that the monthly challenges should be changed into a poll INSTEAD of a judge. I think it might be an ok idea, but the other idea Argonaut had is better IN MY OPINION. If the judge simply stated in the description of the challenge if the models should be complex or simple, that would help, although it MAY deter some on certain months.

One note though, the past 2 months aside there has been a very small amount of competitors for the past year. Check out the December 2010, January, February, March 2011 challenges. So few people submitted entries, can that possibly in some way be due to the views of the judges? I know that is going off on a serious limb, but in years past many people have submitted entries to the monthly challenges (check 2009). Since, the submissions died down over time, yet, many of the individuals that used to compete still fold if you check flickrs and such.

No one has really argued against this though, and I think it may show in at least some way there is at least some sort of problem with the structure of these monthly competitions.

Aside from that, Chris_T I think you do have a very very good point, it would be annoying if the same type of models won every month and that less confident designers can enter and have a chance at winning. I disagree that stating complexity level will not help at all, for it would give you the ability to appeal to the judge more easily than taking a blind stab in the dark, it is like a 50/50 possibly of having little to no chance at winning.

[akugami]

as long as i watch or even join these monthly challenges in here, there has never been such an unpleasant discussion on the judge/-ment.
every winner/judge is an individual with an individual taste and individual judgement criterias. i see no serious problem in our challenges. the chances of winning are promising for everyone, no matter if one's designing in a simple or a high complex style. to repeat the words of a pre-author - with your submission to a challenge you already are a winner with having created something new to enjoy and to be proud of.
i would like to see these challenges to be continued without any changes - and without grotesque and hurtful grumblings on how to judge in the "right" way.

post scriptum: i forgot to give my credits to the winners!

[gab]

[Axel´s Origami]

Epic drama is epic.
Seriously, this sh!t would fit perfectly on 4chan.

[akugami]

so you have to choose - the internet or me ...

[juston]

I think everyone second guessing the judge this month needs to take a step back and realize that this is an informal challenge for no prize whatsoever and is clearly meant just for fun. And much of that fun is seeing everyone's submissions as they come in, being introduced to new folders/folds and seeing what next month's challenge is and trying to wrap your brain around what you could possibly fold for it.

Winning is even made a double edged sword (on purpose, I believe) as it takes you out of the competition for two months whereas not winning frees you up to compete every month. HURRAY! This is a competition that's more about participation and expanding one's horizons than crushing one's enemies, in my opinion.

And on that note, I strongly doubt that the perceived waning participation has anything to do with the way this competition is being judged, as this is the first time I've noticed people trying to snipe the judge in this manner. Look through all the competitions and see which ones have the highest participation. They are without fail the ones with the least specific themes. Ones with more specific (even, dare I say, highly constricting) themes have had little participation. Future winners should take a cue from this trend if they want to see greater participation and choose themes that appeal to large amounts of folders (like this theme, for example).

I think you're barking up the wrong tree by trying to change the way the monthly challenge is judged. If you simply must know what the judge thinks an acceptable model is, ask them. And if you feel the need to be judged by multiple opinions rather than one, enter one of the many competitions that are judged that way. The monthly challenge already has its rules and they've served for years.

[healatequila]

Yes, yes make a mockery of the discussion instead of adding anything of value, Akugami/Axel/Gab. The point still stands that in 2009 there were more people interested in the monthly challenge then there have been on average for the past 2 years, yet the people who competed in the past STILL FOLD, just not for this monthly challenge. For those saying that the system has always worked, why has the competition died down here specifically if the old competitors still fold? Juston, you claim it is due to the topic, but there is no real evidence to support your claim. I am not asking at all for changes to the way a competition is judged, just that the judge say beforehand their preference in model difficulty, for it does seem to have an impact, if you look at past competitions.

At this point I feel there has not been anything of value added after the initial point was stated, and this is not the first time I have stated this exact problem, but I understand why it is not being addressed. After all, these competitions do not matter, since there is no incentive the winner does not matter, it is all just lighthearted fun.

If that is true though, then why is this a competition at all? If you are not at least competing for pride or some form of recognition (for the winner usually should display high quality works and should attract SOME form of attention), then why is a winner announced at all?

Since old people stick to old customs, I think I will drop the issue, since now it is no more than a game of mockery and not discussion.

[akugami]

Yes, yes make a mockery of the discussion instead of adding anything of value, Akugami/Axel/Gab. (...) Since old people stick to old customs, I think I will drop the issue, since now it is no more than a game of mockery and not discussion.

now you're getting impolite, healatequila! the picture above - as well as my reply - were meant to relax the atmosphere a little bit.
there are a lot of creative people taking part in here for years, and they're not only former winners. they'll have their reasons in taking part in one challenge and in just observing another.
you're a quite new member and you did never took part in any of these challenges before. am i right?
what is it that makes you sure, that there's something wrong in how the "monthly folding challenge" is structured and judged? join in, become a winner, a judge and the author of an exciting topic - make everything new and better - but please don't call anyone in here "old people sticking to old customs".
what about having a healing tequila to calm down?

[juston]

Juston, you claim it is due to the topic, but there is no real evidence to support your claim.

Except the evidence I gave and you chose to ignore. Look through the topics yourself and see if you can find a different factor that better explains the level of participation. I'll hear you out.

I am not asking at all for changes to the way a competition is judged, just that the judge say beforehand their preference in model difficulty, for it does seem to have an impact, if you look at past competitions.

It has an impact... except when it doesn't. And like I said, you can always ask the judge yourself if it's that great of a concern. Though I think we'd all take you a bit more seriously if you had even bothered to enter this (or any other competition) rather than just commenting harshly on a first time participant and judge. I think your attitude is more likely to scare people away from future competitions than any fear of unpredictable judging criteria.

At this point I feel there has not been anything of value added after the initial point was stated,

Of course only you and people who agree with you have anything substantive to say. How foolish of us to oppose you!

and this is not the first time I have stated this exact problem,

It isn't? When, apart from this month, have you ever said anything like this?

but I understand why it is not being addressed. After all, these competitions do not matter, since there is no incentive the winner does not matter, it is all just lighthearted fun.

Yes, so why aren't you having any fun?

If that is true though, then why is this a competition at all? If you are not at least competing for pride or some form of recognition (for the winner usually should display high quality works and should attract SOME form of attention), then why is a winner announced at all?

So there will be someone to judge the next month and announce the topic the month after that. It's just set up in a way to self-organize and keep going month after month without the need of any outside influence. Regardless of your opinions about why there isn't always a steady level of participation there has been enough interest to keep this topic going for five years without missing a month. Something's working right.

And good works DO get attention regardless of whether they win or not. I oughta know, I compete here semi-regularly and doing so has gotten a lot of people interested in what I do regardless of how many times I've lost.

[akugami]

And good works DO get attention regardless of whether they win or not. I oughta know, I compete here semi-regularly and doing so has gotten a lot of people interested in what I do regardless of how many times I've lost.

i have to agree - without any restriction.

[anonymous person]

Is it just me or are other people smelling a whiff of troll in healatequila's posts? Right now I fell that healatequila is holding the position of a bully. And for what? Perhaps because he didn't win, in which case he really should grow up, but I believe he didn't even contribute, so perhaps I could even say that this challenge is nothing to do with him! It is not nice to insult non-native English speakers,(I even consider it borderline fascism) and I bet that healatequila's French is much worse than the judge's English. Healatequila should really calm down, monthly challenges are informal and fun and if he cant handle the judge's decision he should really just go away, as his contributions to this thread so far have been nothing but malicious and spiteful.
At the end of the day, Mr Healatequila, who the hell do you think you are?