Glue, Wetfolding, Tissue Foil and Purism

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Glue, Wetfolding, Tissue Foil and Purism

Postby origami_8 » April 5th, 2006, 6:46 pm

I splitted this topic from another one.
To avoid confusion, in the first few posts (including this one) some people speak about "him", he is Satoshi Kamiya.

Nick wrote:he's happy to use glue to keep layers together

:shock:
I wouldn´t have expected that, shocking, indeed!
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Postby Kaimon » April 27th, 2006, 1:27 pm

yes, that´s right...
for the cicada for example he used glue...it always stands a small tube of white glue on his desk.
then he waters down the glue a little bit and takes a small brush to spread it on the insides of legs and other parts of the model that are difficult to make looking naturally or realistic...
is this a big disappointment for you?^^
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Postby Friet » April 27th, 2006, 2:09 pm

I do the same thing, actually. Since most of Satoshi's models (if not all) have an open belly, I'll use glue to keep the model flat and to keep the legs from spreading. To me it's a waste to spend many hours folding a model that won't stay the way I folded it.

Another way to do it would be to wet-fold I suppose, but I don't have good paper for that. And when you think of it in terms of purity, what's the difference between wetfolding and adding glue afterwards anyway? In wetfolding you'll just re-use the glueish stuff (sizing?) in the paper by making it wet and letting it dry in the right shape, instead of adding some glue of your own.
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Postby origami_8 » April 27th, 2006, 7:22 pm

Yes, it is a big disappointment, I would never use glue and I also don´t fold wet because it feels to me like betraying myself if I would do that. Also I don´t like to use something else than a piece of paper (preferably a square one) and my hands while folding. I know, that these are my own puristic rules and that nobody has to feel the same, but for me a cutted or glued model isn´t Origami anymore also if it may look impressing.
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Sniffing around the question of glue

Postby David » April 27th, 2006, 7:36 pm

I don't have a problem with using glue to hold layers, I cannot see why it is any different to using a tissue/foil paper to "mould".

One of the greatest origami masterpieces is Joisel's rat- I tend to use quite heavy paper to get the expression, it's open belly does not stay locked, I use glue.

I prefer for the model to stay shut on it's own, and also prefer the less layered models and sometimes fundamentalists may need to get out more and discover the joys of a glue stick :wink:

Another expression to describe a Devil's advocate is "To put the cat among the pidgeons"

David :twisted:
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Postby Kaimon » April 27th, 2006, 9:27 pm

well, i would(!) use glue, too...
but i only approve this, if the only task of the glue is to make the model look better than without.
if you really "need" glue to get a model of an acceptable quality i´d decline that way of folding with that device...
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Postby wolf » April 27th, 2006, 11:33 pm

Using methylcellulose, wheat starch and other goopy, gluey stuff is becoming increasingly popular. So yeah, purists are going to have to close their eyes more often whenever they attend exhibitions. Anytime you see a model with something long, thin and pointy, chances are that it's been tainted by some form of adhesive. :shock:

Robert Lang's argument is the best - it's not cheating if you still can unfold the model afterwards! :D
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Re: Sniffing around the question of glue

Postby thedeadsmellbad » April 27th, 2006, 11:41 pm

David wrote:I don't have a problem with using glue to hold layers, I cannot see why it is any different to using a tissue/foil paper to "mould".


In one case you are creating the square you want to fold.
In the other example glue is used not to create the square, but to help create the model itself, instead of only folding.

Once you have your folding material, all you should need to do is fold.
If a model isn't designed to allow that, then maybe the problem is with the design.
For me glue, staples, permanent paper clips, cutting, etc...is taboo once I've begun folding, but that is just me.
To each their own in art.
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Postby Friet » April 28th, 2006, 3:06 am

How do you feel about using tissue foil then? Technically, it's not even paper.
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Postby thedeadsmellbad » April 28th, 2006, 11:06 am

Technically it is paper, just not all of it.
Same with brand name origami papers such as foil paper.
But then there are the "origami" papers in craft shops made from a variety of plastics as well.

So my question is where do you draw the defining line for "paper" in origami?
My answer would be that the medium (material) can be anything you are comfortable folding with.

As for tissue foil, I like using it, but not to sculpt, "mould", or moosh into a shape. I prefer intentional creases.
But, there is too much to contend with in making it, so I am slowly trying to search for other alternatives.
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Postby Friet » April 28th, 2006, 11:45 am

Well the way I see it by making tissue foil you're adding foil to your paper for the purpose of being able to shape it better. The legs of an open-belly model wouldn't spread because there's metal foil holding them in place. The fact that this metal foil is glued to the paper doesn't make it one piece of paper. In my opinion, the only difference in using metal foil to keep your models in shape and using glue is that you can glue the metal foil to your paper before the folding process starts, while the glue would be applied after folding. Also, with the glue you would only be able to keep layers from separating (like the legs separating from the body), as opposed to using metal foil to be able to shape the the entire model.

I'm just saying that IF I thought folding with a piece of paper and nothing else was the only way to fold "purely", I wouldn't consider wetfolding and using tissue foil to be pure folding either. I have no problems with these methods, although if I can fold a model without using them I'd prefer to do that ofcourse.
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Postby thedeadsmellbad » April 28th, 2006, 1:59 pm

I agree a purist wouldnt use either. im not a purist in this sense, but maybe so far as that if I start to fold something, that is all I do, fold it. (Although one day I hope to try wetfolding)

the difference in using tissue foil and glueing a model during and after still seems vast to me.
The whole appeal of origami is that whatever we start with, the finished work is accomplished by one thing, folding.

In the store I don't see "origami paper" with a bottle of glue in it to add later, but I do see foil paper.
Making larger squares of foil paper at home is a large step from taking the finished product and altering it.
To me, glueing the model is closer to drawing a face on the head of a model or making plastic model cars that need glue and paint. We are folding something into something. Anything else, is something else.

edited for spelling
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Postby origami_8 » April 28th, 2006, 2:06 pm

I totally agree with you Matthew!
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Postby wolf » April 28th, 2006, 2:20 pm

What about treating a model with goop after folding? Like, perhaps Hojyo Takashi's Shibaraku?

http://www11.ocn.ne.jp/~origami/shasin/ ... shiba1.htm
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Postby thedeadsmellbad » April 28th, 2006, 2:24 pm

I think gooping (hardening) a model is a whole other artform unto itself :)
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