General discussion about Origami, Papers, Diagramming, ...

Postby GreyGeese » October 23rd, 2007, 2:21 pm

quesoonfire wrote:I think two great designers are Brian Chan and Satoshi Kamiya.

Do they have books? (Note: "Books" to me implies folding sequences. I cannot fold from crease patterns, and have gotten no help with that here, although I have asked. :( )
GreyGeese
Junior Member
 
Posts: 106
Joined: July 19th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Postby Daydreamer » October 23rd, 2007, 2:40 pm

Brian Chan hasn't got a book yet (but hopefully will someday), but there are diagrams spread over various convention books. Some (simpler) diagrams are also to be found on his homepage: http://chosetec.darkclan.net/origami/

Satoshi Kamiya has got a book "Works of Satoshi Kamiya". A simple search for it on the forum will give you tons of topics about where to get the book.
f.e. http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3333

About the crease patterns, you were given a link to a topic which includes about as much information as you will find on this forum and on the internet. Just make sure to follow all the links in this topic:
http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2131
I don't know what more help you can wish for....
So long and keep folding ^_^
Gerwin
User avatar
Daydreamer
Moderator
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: October 28th, 2005, 2:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Postby GreyGeese » October 23rd, 2007, 2:57 pm

Daydreamer wrote:I don't know what more help you can wish for....

I guess that the help I (and many others) could wish for is something that hasn't been written yet. I would like to see an expert write a book that explains, step-by step with plenty of examples, how to get from a crease pattern to a folding sequence. It would also be useful to have a section devoted to folding "in one step" by collapsing the creases (including how to crease in the correct locations to begin with.)
Such a book could be worth a fair amount of $ to the author. Something to consider.
GreyGeese
Junior Member
 
Posts: 106
Joined: July 19th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Postby origamimasterjared » October 23rd, 2007, 8:22 pm

Daydreamer wrote:The problem with this is that there is no generic method for solving crease patterns. Every crease pattern is different and for many of them there isn't even a folding sequence.


Precisely. Different types of origami have different crease patterns.
Even within the field of representational origami there are different styles, grid-based vs. angle-based. Uniaxial vs. non-uniaxial, etc. (Kawahata and Robert Lang are a good example of uniaxial usually, Yoshino non-uniaxial, and Kamiya does both.)

Now, while it's really hard to generalize crease patterns, there are certain rules. Given that a crease pattern describes a flat base, the following are true:

    Maekawa's theorem: that at any interior crease intersection, the difference in the number of mountain and valley folds must be 2. A direct corollary is that at every interior intersection, there will be an even number of creases.

    Kawasaki's theorem: that at any interior crease intersection, each set of alternating angles will add up to 180 degrees.

Those two theorems hold true for any flat origami base. If a crease pattern does not meet both those criteria it is not flat-foldable.

Also, the thing with Robert Lang and all those unsinks and wraps and stuff--that is basically solving a crease pattern. A straightforward, no-frills, linear approach to solving a crease pattern. All those un/wraps and un/sinks allow a linear folding sequence instead of having to perform a complicated collapse.
User avatar
origamimasterjared
Buddha
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: August 13th, 2004, 6:25 pm

CP Neophytes

Postby HankSimon » October 24th, 2007, 2:02 am

Have pity on those of us who don't have the geometric intuition to fold CPs. :shock:
I respect the folks who understand ODS and can fold CPs. We all respect Anermak's talent and generosity. However, I can't 'see' CPs, yet. I still can't fold a simple CP with differentiated (colored mountain and valley) folds, like the box pleated frog.

I have read some of the "tutorials" that lead me to believe that multiple parallel lines might alternate. And I look at Ori-gauthier:
viewtopic.php?t=3161&start=45, and I appreciate his photo help.... And that helps tremendously.

But the hard question to answer is, How do you know which direction to fold ? What are the structures and base components that you recognize ?

Having requested that, even if you teach, the student may not yet be ready. ...It took me nearly 3 years to finally "get" Mooser's Train... And I still don't know how to close the caboose, and mold the locomotive.

- Hank Simon
HankSimon
Buddha
 
Posts: 1262
Joined: August 12th, 2006, 12:32 am
Location: Texas, USA

Postby qtrollip » October 24th, 2007, 2:27 am

To be honest, I have never folded anything from CP. I admire those people who can though. I guess you need alot of experience in folding from diagrams before you can just dissect a CP.
I sometimes design a CP for a model before folding it. Or, if I have a simple base for a specific model, but I want to add (for instance) fingers, I will draw this into the CP of the base. And Voila. There you have your CP. Then figure out the reference points or lines. Or add the "pleats" according to reference points/lines that are easy to get to.

So my advice for folding CP's (even though I'm not the guy to talk) is to first understand basic structures or already existing bases.

Also I don't think CPs are a substitution for diagrams. Just for the plain fact that diagrams are easier, and origami needs to be shared amongst more people, as opposed to a very few who can actually dissect and fold CPs.

BUT, I don't think writing a book on how to fold from CPs will make any difference. First get experience in folding different types of origami. Then try to design something yourself. It doesn't have to be good. Nobody starts by designing a Bahamut! And as you get better, CPs will make more sence. It would help to have a brain like origamimasterjared's, but I think experience is more helpful that geometric intuition. Having both is, obviously, the answer!
qtrollip
Forum Sensei
 
Posts: 849
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 4:52 am
Location: Canada

Re: CP Neophytes

Postby Brimstone » October 24th, 2007, 2:30 am

HankSimon wrote:But the hard question to answer is, How do you know which direction to fold ? What are the structures and base components that you recognize ?


There is no single answer for this question. Usually the creases right next to the border of the paper (considering you are solving the CP color side up), will be mountains, there might be exceptions to this rule, but it is so 99 % of the times. Color change could contradict this statement, but usually CP's are done for the base and not the finished model, so they will still be mountain.

One thing that is important to understand and that many people don't seem to know (at one time I thought the same), is that the CP usually takes you to the base of the model, but to accomplish the finished model, you still have to (in many cases) do a lot of folding based on your own experience and imagination. Take the case of Miyajima's CP's. They are not very difficult, but to get from the base (the intended step of the CP) to the Finished model it can take you 100 + steps.
User avatar
Brimstone
Buddha
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: November 23rd, 2004, 3:59 am
Location: Colombia, South America

Re: CP Neophytes

Postby GreyGeese » October 24th, 2007, 1:26 pm

HankSimon wrote:
But the hard question to answer is, How do you know which direction to fold ? What are the structures and base components that you recognize ?

Another very hard question is, in what order do you perform the folds. If you attempt to do what should be step 30 without doing steps 1-29 first, you will get hopelessly stuck. (A related issue is locating the creases. In a folding sequence, locating a given crease almost always requires using the creases that preceded it.)
GreyGeese
Junior Member
 
Posts: 106
Joined: July 19th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Re: CP Neophytes

Postby origamimasterjared » October 24th, 2007, 7:37 pm

GreyGeese wrote:Another very hard question is, in what order do you perform the folds. If you attempt to do what should be step 30 without doing steps 1-29 first, you will get hopelessly stuck. (A related issue is locating the creases. In a folding sequence, locating a given crease almost always requires using the creases that preceded it.)


Actually that's an easy one. It doesn't really matter. Once all the creases are located you might do the entire collapse at once.

Here are some basic guidelines for order though:
    Check for border and strip grafts and built-in patterning.

    Start big. Find the largest, most important-looking creases and fold them first. They should be the easiest to locate. Most or all of the other creases should be locate-able from there.

    Look for recognizable structures. It is common to find things like birdbases inside a crease pattern. The most common method of folding these is to fold the area in half, perform a frog-base-style petal fold, and then unwrap. The "Montroll wing fold" is another one you can learn and see a lot.

    Once you have those, you should be able to find all the other creases.

    At this point you may have to worry about point-splits, which you can see a lot of in Origami Sea Life. Basically any time there is a bird base type of point that you fold up perpendicular to the edge and then a few steps later you have two or three points there--that's a point split.

The hard part about folding from a crease pattern is in taking the base to the finished form. The rest can be done by a robot.
User avatar
origamimasterjared
Buddha
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: August 13th, 2004, 6:25 pm

Re: CP Neophytes

Postby GreyGeese » October 24th, 2007, 8:01 pm

origamimasterjared wrote:Actually that's an easy one. It doesn't really matter. Once all the creases are located you might do the entire collapse at once.

Following a folding sequence is the only way I know of to get the creases onto the paper in the first place! :?
GreyGeese
Junior Member
 
Posts: 106
Joined: July 19th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Postby Galif » October 24th, 2007, 10:46 pm

Well, that's why you need reference points! If you are not good at finding them, use Lang's Reference Finder. And if you are working with box-pleated models, it's even easier...
It's impossible until someone does it.
Galif
Junior Member
 
Posts: 78
Joined: September 4th, 2007, 10:13 am
Location: Brazil

Postby GreyGeese » October 30th, 2007, 1:20 pm

qtrollip wrote:BUT, I don't think writing a book on how to fold from CPs will make any difference. First get experience in folding different types of origami. Then try to design something yourself. It doesn't have to be good. Nobody starts by designing a Bahamut! And as you get better, CPs will make more sence. It would help to have a brain like origamimasterjared's, but I think experience is more helpful that geometric intuition. Having both is, obviously, the answer!

Instead of a book, how about an ordered list of crease patterns to practice on. The list would start off very simple (perhaps just a preliminary fold), and increase in complexity with really small steps until it reaches genuinely challenging models. (Helpful hints along the way would also be good.) :idea:
I would like folding from CPs if I understood how, especially if it enables highly complex models while avoiding super-hard folds (eg closed wraps.)
GreyGeese
Junior Member
 
Posts: 106
Joined: July 19th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Postby Galif » October 30th, 2007, 2:11 pm

Why don't you just try to figure it out by yourself :D?
It's impossible until someone does it.
Galif
Junior Member
 
Posts: 78
Joined: September 4th, 2007, 10:13 am
Location: Brazil

Postby GreyGeese » October 30th, 2007, 3:05 pm

Too hard! :oops:
GreyGeese
Junior Member
 
Posts: 106
Joined: July 19th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Postby HankSimon » October 30th, 2007, 11:48 pm

I second that ! At this stage of the game, I have folded lots.... by the Betty Crocker method. However, I still don't quite get the CPs, especially those without specific valley and mountain folds.

For example, I couldn't do this House:
http://scripts.mit.edu/~jasonku/index.p ... del=house1

Someone showed me the mountain folds.... and I finally worked it out.... But I couldn't get any progress, until someone else providede a little guidance.

- Hank Simon
HankSimon
Buddha
 
Posts: 1262
Joined: August 12th, 2006, 12:32 am
Location: Texas, USA

Next

Return to General Origami Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest