Satoshi Kamiya Ryu-Zin Scale Test Photo

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Satoshi Kamiya Ryu-Zin Scale Test Photo

Postby godzebu » March 15th, 2008, 3:09 pm

Hey everyone,

I am in a mist of figuring out the Satoshi (SK) Kamiya’s Ryu-Zin CP (I’d say I’ve got about 80% done).
Photo below is the showing the finished product of scale (testing).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2334274907

I’ve already managed to fold the head…. The asymmetry of this CP confirmed the ingenious usage of square piece of paper by Kamiya-san (Truly, the man is genius for sure…)

I used 30 cm x 30cm, which resulted in about 11cm x 11cm product. However, this task made me realize two very important points that may shine a glimpse of hope for those of you (including myself) with possibility of seeing official diagrams of Ryu-Zin drawn by SK himself (someday).

I hope I won’t stir up to much controversy here. However, those of you who worked on Ryu-Zin may agree with me that the hardest part is not figuring out the CP (Don’t get me wrong, it is extremely difficult indeed), rater, the hardest part is seemingly endless repetitive scale and final shaping once you manage to fold the CP.

To go off on a tangent a little, above point can me supported by making of another complex model by SK. Using my rather pitiful looking Ancient Dragons for examples (see my flickr photos), I can say (for me) that it is harder to shape the origami models then to make the base.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2334272699

Ones I posted on the flickr are my tenth attempt. The difficulty of folding the base of this model is same when comparing my first attempt to my latest attempt (on 16th try now). However, the shaping is still the most difficult part.

So going back to the Ryu-Zin, I truly believe (IMO) that it is real possibility to see SK publishing the diagram based on the fact that explaining how to clasping CP won’t take pages and pages like everyone may think. Making a single scale, for example takes about 10 steps max (I made pictorial diagrams using 5 photos) after that, SK can just say “repeat steps 1-10” for next 700….!! See my point?

Anyways, I guess the bottom-line is that it is possible to see Ryu-Zin’s diagram by SK in the future. The Real question is “Will you even attempt to fold them?” and considering the necessary requirement of making the several times to make it presentable… wow, that thought just gives me the headache.. I almost hope that he never publish it. I can see myself spending too many weekends working on it if he does.

Happy-Folding everyone!

Zebu
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Postby rdrutel » March 15th, 2008, 3:46 pm

Nice work...I would love to see diagrams myself and you are right, they may not be so difficult, but just extremely repetetive. But, the question is, does Kamiya want so many people to have what is considered one of the greatest models out there?
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Satoshi Kamiya Ryu-Zin Scale Test Photo

Postby godzebu » March 15th, 2008, 5:50 pm

Well, theoretically, all the information you need to fold this great model is out there.

Here, I’ll contribute to that. I just posted new informative picture on my Flikr account.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2335477110/

(To “CP/Diagram Police Forces” out here…. please note that NO CP NOR ANY COPY RIGHTED MATERIALS ARE POSTED SO PLEASE DO NOT FREAK OUT)

So, we both know that CP, or partial CP is out there, (Heck, SK himself displayed the CP of Ryu-Zin 3.5’s head CP publically), we know how to fold the scale, we know it is an asymmetrical model, we know how it utilize the paper and finally we have photo diagrams from artur biernacki (well its really fold progress photot, rather than actual diagrams. Again, to “CP/Diagram Police Forces” out here, DO NOT FREAK OUT!!). Therefore, technically with enough dedication and desire, folding Ryu-Zin is very likely possible.

The physical demand of folding, however, will present a depressing reality for those of us who wish to do so. Again, using my experiences as the base (I don’t like to speculate what other can do, so I use something I can relate to), making about 60 scales (shown in earlier post) took me about 2.5 hours (pre-creaseing, folding, shaping, and working without break). So if I estimate Ryu-Zin having 1000 scales (IMO, this is an underestimation… there are presumably more scales in Ryu-Zin 3.5) the estimated time to fold Ryu-Zin will require far more than 41 hours for me..(41 Hours are time required to fold 1000 scales), again…. Depressing reality…..

In addition, again, using my experiences as an example, it requires me to make the model more than 5-6 times in order to make it look presentable. So.. that means, 41+ hours x 5 = 205 hours (= 8.54 days..straight!!)…..These numbers does not excite me.

I don’t think SK should worry about him receiving the credit for Ryu-Zin regardless how many people “know” how to fold this model. He is already in the history book for “THE ONE” who came up with it. Even if he publish it, I highly doubt that we will see whole bunch of pictures of newly folded Ryu-Zin in “What have you Folded Lately?” section of this forum due to its “extreme” requirement to physically fold this model. For this, I truly believe that SK may publish it because it really won’t make difference (IMO).

Happy Folding~

zebu

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2335477110/
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Postby Jonnycakes » March 15th, 2008, 6:50 pm

Even with the scales being the bulk of the folding and being easily expressed in only a few diagrammed steps, the base is no cakewalk to fold, I'm sure. There would be plenty of precreasing (not the biggest deal to diagram, but it would still take quite a few steps), folding the legs, collapsing all of those layers, etc, etc. Kamiya has diagrammed complex things, such as his ancient dragon and bahamut, but ryujin would still be very time consuming to diagram. And he would have to fold several versions of the base to come up with a good folding sequence. Does he really want to spend the time to fold it again (possibly more than once)? There will be few people to attempt it, to be sure, just because of the sheer amount of skill (and paper!) it takes to fold it, but is Kamiya willing to put so much time into diagramming to allow that? I would be happy with a full CP, personally.
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Satoshi Kamiya Ryu-Zin Scale Test Photo

Postby godzebu » March 15th, 2008, 9:47 pm

Never Did I say that it will be an EASY TASK to diagram Ryu-Zin. :lol:

However, looking at the diagram for the Ancient Dragon and the Bahamut one may realize that majority of these CP are neither pleating, nor repetitive steps.
Without offending any SK fan out here (I for one, am his big fan), I am dare to say that the technical aspects of folding Ryu-Zin, once ( if ever) diagram is published, will not be too far pass his Ancient Dragon, Bahamut, or Wasp (You can quote me on that…… that is… if there ever be a diagram and when comparing it to Anceint Dragon, Bahamut, and wasp, it won be not to far advanced).
However, as mentioned above, finding a paper will be very difficult ….

Here is my Photo Instructions on folding Ryu-Zin scales,
I am using 30 cm by 30cm here..
1. Divided diagonally to 8 by 8 units.
2. Keep in mind that this is just one side of the scale. There are center segment which forms the belly.
3. So imagine two of these scale sets join by wider scale set (I measured to be 2x unit, correct me If I am wrong)
4. Enjoy.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/sets/72157604126821965/

Below comments are for scale test photo I posted on Flickr. (Not the instructional Photos)
So, doing more maths here…
1. This particular set of test scale was made using 30cm X 30 cm paper, which yield in about 11cm X 11 cm final product.
2. Each scale is about 2.5 cm by 1 cm. and yet it was still difficult to sink each side (you’ll know what I mean once you see the photo instructions). I am mentioning this to say… for me, I would not want the scales to be any less in size than this dimension.
3. In Ryu-Zin, the actual portion of scale is about 1/8 of the entire CP. (This is an estimate made by me so please do not challenge me on this, I won’t reply)
4. So…. If I like to make Ryu-Zin based on the size of scale I am comfortable working with (2.5 cm by 1 cm), then I need minimum 240 cm…. 2.4 m by 2.4 m. This depresses me.
5. The only paper of this dimension I know of is the Photo back-drop papers and they are too pathetically weak that it fell apart when I tried to make Phoenix using 1.2 m x 1.2m paper..It just did not hold together after pre-creasing.
6. So to sum up, show me the papers that are 2.4 m x 2.4 m, strong enough to take all the pre-creasing without falling apart, and support me for a month financially (since I probably cannot hold on to real job and this at the same time), then I’ll show you Ryu-Zin…well figuratively speaking.

Happy Folding Everyone!!

zebu
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Postby JeossMayhem » March 15th, 2008, 11:55 pm

I'm not as optimistic as you are on the terms that Kamiya will make diagrams... I think there's something less than a 50% chance... But I agree, a lot of people don't have the time/patience/conditioning to fold accurately for that long. Few will try and many will come to this realzation and end up throwing themeselves in front of trains.
Depending on how much Ryuzin means to him, Kamiya may be more or less reluctant to give it away.

Even if I didn't have school, work, and had a diagram, I don't think I'd try this any time in the near future. Maybe in fourty years when I retire, hah.

Has anyone here tried contacting Kamiya about it? (I'm assuming he gets fifty e-mails a day asking for diagrams for everything). I could have tried asking him personally if my mom would have taken me with her to Japan and the Origami House... gonna have to settle with Tanteidan 13 for now, hah.
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Postby Galif » March 16th, 2008, 12:17 am

I won't die until I fold Ryu Zin, that's for sure... but I don't plan dying any time soon, hehehe :lol:!
It's impossible until someone does it.
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Postby Jonnycakes » March 16th, 2008, 1:04 am

He may not want to give it away as you said, but i personally love putting CPs of my models out there. I love when people are interested in my work and want to recreate it-I have a hard time not releasing CPs for some of my designs. I suppose it takes more patience and will to keep the design a secret, and that doing so is a sort of 'magicians never reveals their tricks' mentality.
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Postby origamimasterjared » March 16th, 2008, 2:07 am

Nice work, godzebu! I saw a much easier way to do the scales. Instead of closed sinks, it just requires a load of mountain folds. If you rearrange the layers (before the part were you flipped it over) it will look like the back of yours, but it will be possible to just mountain-fold to shape the scales. I'll try to upload the photos.
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Postby artur biernacki » March 22nd, 2008, 11:46 pm

Godzebu you can reading this post.
viewtopic.php?t=3256&highlight=satoshi
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Postby Ondrej.Cibulka » March 23rd, 2008, 2:51 pm

I think, that 50 % for Kamiya's diagramming of Ryu Zin is too big. I am very pesimistic in this case, this model is very probably inaccessible. But, for me, it is never mind, becouse I never fold it as nice as Kamiya, co I have no ambition to fold it. Looking on the model is enough for me.
Ondrej Cibulka Origami, www.origamido.cz
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Postby godzebu » March 25th, 2008, 6:01 pm

Hey Thanks Arthur,

Your method is so much easier and probably right on the money.

Thank you for your wisdom for us all to enjoy.

Happy folding!

zebu
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