Satoshi Kamiya - Ryu Zin (CP Study by zebu)

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Satoshi Kamiya - Ryu Zin (CP Study by zebu)

Postby godzebu » March 28th, 2008, 9:00 pm

Hey all,

Instead of starting a new post every time I have a break through in figuring out the mystery of Ryu Zin 3.5 by Satoshi Kamiya (SK), I will continue on this post from now on.

As popular as Ryu Zin 3.5 by SK is in this forum and much flaming discussion it caused, here are some ground rules I'd like to establish before I start posting.

1. I DO have CP of Ryu Zin 2.1.
It is LEGALLY purchased and digitally scanned by me (for study/personal use only). I will not (I repeat WILL NOT) share this so please stop PM me or e-mail me or stand by my door/ window late at night just waiting for me to respond (The door and the window part was a joke…. PM and E-mail part was not).

2. I DO NOT have CP of later versions of Ryu Zin (i.e. 3.1 and 3.5). Any partial CP that I may publish in my flickr account is either drawn by me and/or my close associates who are also studying Ryu Zin 3.5 (several of my “associates” are able to fold Ryu Zin 3.5 just from their own investigations and studies….I am also trying to accomplish that. Only without information being handed to me freely without any effort in my part… where is the fun in that?).

3. My ultimate goal is to document the processes it took me to fold (if ever)/study Ryu Zin 3.5 in systematic and methodical way. "CREDIBILITY" is everything, I will do my best to establish it, if there are questions, please ask me clearly, I will try my best to explain the process.

4. All the photos and instructions I may publish in my Flickr account will NOT violate any copy rights. Please give me the benefit of doubt in knowing what’s right and what’s wrong. Any (uninvited) comments regarding the Legality of files I posted on my Flickr WILL BE IGNORED with great pleasure.


NOW that’s all out of the way,…..

Let’s get to the fun stuff.

Here are ten pieces of information I complied, which will be my bases for folding Ryu-Zin 3.5 (Skip this part if you think you know all there is to know about the Ryu Zin 3.5)

1. It is back-open (open at the top), asymmetric model (I will post either photos and/or video explaining this)

2. Information on how to fold and shape the scales for Ryu Zin 3.5 can be found on this forum. (Here is the link http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3256&highlight=satoshi)

3. There is CP for Ryu Zin 2.1. It was once sold as part of JOS membership deal in 2002 (Calendar) However it is no longer in prints. I have personally contacted JOS for it. They told me there is no future plan on re-prints. Thus, only viable way to obtain it is illegally via internet/personal source (I WILL NOT MENTION HOW IT CAN BE DONE) or via luck like I did and obtain it from old book store, and/or garage sale. (This…is probably my weakest point on this post…. It is too shady, but this is best way I can state my point without “crossing” the line).

4. There is CP for Ryu Zin 3.5 Head only on this forum. (Here is the link http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=558&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15)

5. Artur had mentioned in one of his post, that he is willing to provide some progressive photos (Not a diagram nor clear CP) of folding Ryu Zin 2.1 with 3.5 scale shaping on this forum (Here is the link http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23588&highlight=#23588). Thanks Artur, you are an inspiration to us all!!!

6. There is a YouTube video on Satoshi Kamiya’s top models. In that video, Ryu-Zin 3.5 is mentioned as his top model with some flash shots of him actually folding the thing (Here is the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGQJVmfph_k&feature=related).

7. According to folks who successfully folded Ryu Zin 3.5, all started by doing partial studies of the CP. Some examples of individual parts studied were: a. Asymmetry (How this thing comes together), b. Head, c. Scales, d. Legs, f. Scales on legs, g. Head to body connections. Of course these are just some logical portion of CP that can be isolated to be studied. If you can just look at them and fold them like Artur or Anamerk, then more power to ya. I am going to do partial study first.

8. Two facts that I personally had to accept (also found most difficult to make peace with) are size of paper required to fold decent size finished model (for a standard where finished model would be about 30 - 40 inches long) and the time it will require to fold the model itself even if all is figured out (I estimate it will take me about 20 hours straight time even if I know exactly how to hold the entire thing…..based on my scale tests) Here are reference posts
http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3791
http://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3839

9. The grid line for main body of Ryu Zin 2.1 is 80 x 80 units. The scale on the body requires 160 x 160 units (this is only base grids required to fold 2.1 not exactly the only folds necessary).

10. Finally, I came to realize that number of scales on Ryu Zin 2.1 and 3.5 are significantly different. See my comparison photo in my flickr account for detail (Here is the Link http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2368886288/).

In short, looking at it diagonally, Ryu Zin 2.1 had 3 – 4 (I counted mostly 3) rows of scales. However, in 3.5, it is 5 – 6 (mostly 5)….. This means more scales then I anticipated. Also, increased number of scales will throw off the paper usage for the Ryu Zin 3.5…. meaning just simply changing the shape of scales for 2.1, graft scales on the legs, and add dorsal scales to 2.1 will not make 3.5……. DAM# IT!!!!

It is like case of Phoenix 3.0 to 3.5… for those of you who made both phoenix 3.0 and 3.5 can agree with me that Phoenix 3.5 has significantly smaller “head to body” ratio compared 3.0. This happened when SK grafted a strip to the edge of paper to give extra flap for the extra claw in 3.5. That was caused by ONE extra flap!!! Now we are talking two or more to compensate for minimum two rows of extra scales added. The bad news is it will take more time to fold all those extra scales, and it possibly will require larger paper…. However, the good news is Ryu-Zin 3.5’s body is much wider from dorsal to abdominal direction, and it has added details on its head, such as teeth. You can see these details added on Ryu Zin 3.5 Head CP.

Thanks for reading this far for…. I’ll try to make my future posts much shorter.

Happy Folding.

zebu
Last edited by godzebu on March 28th, 2008, 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jonnycakes » March 28th, 2008, 10:02 pm

Good luck with your quest for Ryujin 3.5-I am interested to see if you can come up with a good rendition of it! (I am also interested if it is legal for you to share your CP that you come up with for 3.5, since it is not Kamiya's work, but a variant on it...)
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Postby bethnor » March 29th, 2008, 12:30 am

i was actually somewhat surprised when i went to zebu's flickr account... i would totally have not guessed that the cp "layout" of ryu-zin 3.5 is what it is. i would have intuited that one corner was the head, the distal corner the tail, with the legs being drawn either from the remaining corners/edges. lol, guess that's why i suck at cp. or that the ryu-zin was made from a long rectangle, much like koh's and derudas' cobra. and wow, the skill to *not* make the model look thick...

while i continue to doubt that an actual diagram will ever happen b/c of the work involved, i hope kamiya will do it as a study in assymetrical folding, which, to date, i honestly don't think there is anything like.
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Postby origamimasterjared » March 29th, 2008, 12:40 am

Cool stuff, Zebu. Take a look at the 3.5 head CP again. It contains more than just the head. It also starts off the scales. What it doesn't show is how to get the scales on the legs or how to make the tail.

And believe me, I know what you mean about people PMing you asking for Ryu-zin diagrams.
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Postby qtrollip » March 29th, 2008, 3:12 am

Well, after seeing that CP, I wish you all the luck!
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Postby godzebu » March 29th, 2008, 5:09 am

Origamimasterjared,

Thanks for your comment. Yes I am aware that CP Artur posted is not just the head… which gives me great hope. See here for my interpretations on Ryu Zin 3.5 Head CP break down.

Ryu Zin 3.5 Head CP Break down Part 01
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2369616011/

Ryu Zin 3.5 Head CP Break down Part 02
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2370485418/

Ryu Zin 3.5 Head CP Break down Part 03
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2370501322/


Hm... I think this is enough for me today. I'll try to get version 3.5 scale (increased number and dorsal scales) tomorrow..

Happy Folding

zebu
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Postby Jonnycakes » March 29th, 2008, 8:56 pm

bethnor wrote:i was actually somewhat surprised when i went to zebu's flickr account... i would totally have not guessed that the cp "layout" of ryu-zin 3.5 is what it is. i would have intuited that one corner was the head, the distal corner the tail, with the legs being drawn either from the remaining corners/edges. lol, guess that's why i suck at cp. or that the ryu-zin was made from a long rectangle, much like koh's and derudas' cobra. and wow, the skill to *not* make the model look thick...

while i continue to doubt that an actual diagram will ever happen b/c of the work involved, i hope kamiya will do it as a study in assymetrical folding, which, to date, i honestly don't think there is anything like.


Believe me, you don't suck at CPs if you don't intuitively see the paper usage for Kamiya's Ryujin. That is an incredibly ingenious and atypical usage of paper that is not like anything I, at least, have seen. I also initially thought, like you, that Ryujin was oriented diagonally.
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Postby godzebu » March 30th, 2008, 3:23 am

Scale test for Ryu Zin 3.5 is DONE!!!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2372891338/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N03/2372891674/

Next is the legs.... I see that this is going to take loooooong time

happy folding

zebu
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Postby origamimasterjared » March 30th, 2008, 4:02 am

Very nice. Told you you shouldn't have much trouble with those scales. :)
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Postby Finward » March 31st, 2008, 4:30 am

As far as i see this study, i have only one name for it: beautiful
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Postby merman » March 31st, 2008, 4:15 pm

can someone explain in what way the CP (I have, in fact seen a CP of it - I think the first version) is asymmetrical. Why does he need a asymmetrical CP when the animal itself is symmetrical???
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Postby godzebu » March 31st, 2008, 6:35 pm

MERMEN,

I shared your frustration until few months ago.
I finally got fed up with “NOT KNOWING” the secret of Ryu Zin and begin to study it.

*Please Be Advised, I ramble on forever so if you just want the main points, skip to #4 and on, rest are just back ground information for completeness sake*

Well, initially, I though that it goes across the paper diagonally… like most people would imagine when they see elongate shaped models.

I “tried” to understand the model by using large paper towel. I know it sounds crazy but stay with me here. When I see the model that I want to fold, but have neither CP nor diagrams on hand, I use large paper towel to basically shape the model and unfold and come up with the general paper usage distributions for the model. (For your skeptics out there, try it.. it works.)

This method is especially AWESOME when you HAVE CP, because it gives you “very general” idea of how things should fold together at the end without spending 30 hours trying to figure it out…. (In most of case for me, papers become flimsy like paper towels when I spend 30 hour messing with it anyways).

Anyways, I tried to fold and shape up some paper towels in shape of Ryu Zin and realized few things.

1. If the model is made going diagonally across the paper, there is too much paper bunch up in the mid section of the paper. (Roll the paper diagonally, and see where the thickest part of paper located….. see what I mean?)

2. There are many models based on the symmetry line going this direction. However, it seem they address this “potentially thick mid-section” issues in two ways (IMO). One is that the folding sequences of model ends before it get too thick. We all can agree that Ryu Zin’s folding sequences will NOT end in few folds so we can scratch this explanation out.

Second option is that (and it is very obvious…. I feel so dumb that I didn’t figure this out before) model itself use a lot of paper in the mid section…..and the features that used papers are located very close, sometimes on top of, each other. Examples are insect models from Dr. Lang, Ancient dragon, and Phoenix by SK. They all require heavy paper usage in the mid sections of paper, via legs and wings that are very closely located and/or on top of each other. Now, look at Ryu Zin. What is in the middle part of Ryu Zin that would take up so much paper? It has neither wings nor other crazy features… Yes it has legs. However, is it located at the middle of model? To me, they are located like 2/7th and 4/7th of the body (Granted it is just estimation, but we should at least be able to agree that the paper usage for Ryu Zin is not middle heavy like other symmetrical, super complex models by SK where model is designed based on diagonal direction).

To me this gave me a clue that Ryu Zin’s paper usage, if symmetrical, has to have some sort of way to distribute the paper away from the middle section to about ¼ ways into the paper…. I thought that was almost impossible.

3. Looking at the finished model of Ryu Zin 1.0, 2.1, 3.1, and 3.5. There is an obvious difference in paper usage in these models. Ryu Zin 1.0 has very thick mid section (lots of paper in the middle). 2.1 to 3.5 have heavy usage of paper on head and legs respectively. So how did he do it?....

Being a super fan of SK and having his book (Works of SK …..), I remember that there was another model of his that had to deal with similar (uneven usage of paper) problem. The Wizard!!.
This model had giant staff on one hand and none on the other. This is also a well known model of his that are asymmetrical. For me, this opened up a possibility that Ryu Zin may not be symmetrical after all.

4. Now let get to the CP for Ryu Zin 2.1. After I got the CP, I was happy to see that Ryu Zin was not symmetrical design as I predicted. However, the paper usage did not make sense. So I did my “Paper towel” method to see if this is even possible. I can tell you that there are very claver uses of pleating and Elias-strach (a method of keep part of pleat as is but spread the rest….. it is also used in Dr Lang’s Dancing Crane…. On its wing).

5. To sum up, I will post a series of photos in next 24hours, explaining the “Concept” of asymmetric usage of paper in Ryu Zin design. NO I WILL NOT show any CP or partial CP. However, I hope to be able to demonstrate the concept of asymmetry. This is best I could do to help out fellow origami enthusiast and provide a bit of relief in their frustration of “NOT KNOWING” without violating any Copyright laws so ADMIN (and other CP Police out there), I request bit of leniency.


Happy Folding

zebu
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Postby Trekker_1983 » March 31st, 2008, 7:18 pm

This is a very interesting study. Looking forward to see your photo explanations on the asymmetric use of paper for this excellent model.
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Postby origamimasterjared » March 31st, 2008, 9:01 pm

I remember a long time ago, Jason Ku told me that every complex origami artist should have the crease pattern to Kamiya's Ryu-zin. Even if you don't fold it. Just the ingenious use of paper is really quite a feat. So I bought the CP, and well, first was put off by the 80 x 80 box-pleating, but then I did notice the clever way the body is made so long. As Zebu said, it's not symmetrical, not diagonal at all, rather as I remember, the front half of the body is at the top of the CP, and the back half is at the bottom. Some nutty Elias-stretching allows the two opposite edges of the paper to be brought together.
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Postby mrsriggins » March 31st, 2008, 10:34 pm

:shock: wow.... some of that went straight over my head, I just wanted to say great job! I have very limited understanding of Cp's but your's broke it down to a comprehensive level showing the parts. Keep us updated as you get farther and good luck! 8)
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