Copyright and respect

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Copyright and respect

Postby hunprat » October 23rd, 2005, 5:39 am

It seem that there is a real problem with copyright in origami and people here just seem to ignore the problem. And when someone does disrespect the copyright and illegally distribute diagrams, there is nothing done by the community. It is up to the author to defend his work. There is no real punishment for such a person by the community. I think there is something wrong with that. And when I try to voice my opinion and to reveal such a person, the post is deleted and the it is called flaming a person. Such a person deserve to be flame. But you might disagree because they are the one providing illegal diagrams for you.

Now if you want to delete this post, be my guest.

Because of this I will take a break from origami and will not release any CP or diagrams to anyone. If you have diagrams for any of my models, you have illegal diagrams and if you didn't get a CP directly from me, you also have illegal copies of my CP. And for those who feel like diagramming any of my models, you will never be able to publish it, because I will never agree to it.

Good bye,
Phu Tran
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Postby Joseph Wu » October 23rd, 2005, 6:52 am

Phu,

You have one model where this has happened to you. I've had many, including cases where I've been shafted for professional fees. And photos of my work (from my website, with the copyright notice still there) are routinely used on eBay to sell so-called "ebooks" of origami diagrams that are stolen from websites (sometimes including my diagrams). So don't think that you're the only one who has had their copyright violated. Of course it's up to the copyright holder to defend his work. Who else is going to do it? Welcome to the real world.

Now, having said that, in those instances where I see other people's work being ripped off, I say something. But I learned long ago that how you say something is almost as important as what you say. If you had come out with a message that said something like "pnpurdue continues to provide diagrams on his site that I have not approved", that's one thing. What you did was to take a private email and made it public, plastering a scathing personal attack here on this forum. If you're mad at him, fine. Yell at him in private. If you want to inform the rest of us that he's done something wrong, that's fine, too. But we don't want, nor need, to have you throwing a public hissy fit in response to a private conversation. It's rude, disrespectful, and childish. You complain that pnpurdue disrespected you: that might be true, but it does not give you licence to disrespect that rest of us. Flaming is simply bad behaviour, and that's the reason your posts were deleted. It had nothing to do with protecting or not protecting your copyright.

So don't give me any lip that I "might disagree because they are the one providing illegal diagrams for [me]." I don't have a copy of those diagrams, nor do I want them. If I want to fold a rose, I'll fold one of Kawasaki's. If that's not good enough for what I need, I'll design my own. And I've had my diagrams ripped off many more times than you. If you want respect, Phu, you need to earn it. Acting like a prima donna isn't going to do it.
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Postby pnpurdue » October 23rd, 2005, 7:49 am

I think it's about time for me to respond. Let me be the first to say that there are no winners in this situation. Both Phu and I are at faults. I personally would like to say sorry to this origami forum for having to deal with this. I tried to take the matter in a private manner by emailing him. But when I found out he had posted my email on here, I was shocked. Phu, with actions like that who can still take you seriously. Joseph said it once before, "it is rude and childish." When I sent you the apology email, I meant what I said, and I wanted to sooth things out with you. However, you still wanted to get "revenge" and filled your thinking that I faked it. I can't believe it! You even went as far as emailing my school to try to get me in trouble and ruin my career! Do you even know the consequences? All for an origami rose?

Lets take a break about you and discuss my diagrams in general. Joseph maybe you can help clear up some thinking on this portion. Yes I have made diagrams to Phu's rose through trial and error from a CP. I then developed my own folding techniques of how I solved the CP. From what I understand, my approach is completely different from his approach. I start with a diagonal "X" at the center portion of the paper and reference points were achieved surely not the same way. However, I specifically gave Phu all the credit. I did not call it PnPurdue's Rose. I then emailed him and gave him a copy and requested if I can post it online so others who can't go to conventions to be able to fold it too. Grant it I did asked a very selected few to run through for mistakes and confusion before I sent my request to Phu. In my view that is an appropriate thing to do before you send it to the "printing press." Phu in turn started assuming I already sent it out to everyone who surfs the net. However I made clear to him that I didn't because he has not given me permission. But lets get to the real point, am I completely at fault in this situation?

Thank you all for your patience with the issue and hopefully we can all learn from this.

PnPurdue
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Postby gubeauss » October 23rd, 2005, 8:14 am

It's really sad when origami becomes painful for some people.

I think your anger is normal, though I have never had one of my models published without my consent, because there are only three, and not really good, but I agree with Joseph Wu when he says that you should resolve this problem in private because I don't like seeing people being angry.

The person that has published your diagrams on the web has been blamed already in the topic about your rose, and the users of this forum could already make their opinion about that issue.

If you want the person who you are mad at to be punished, ask for justice at the court, but this wouldn't be the best thing to do, you would just lose your time without having any result. Pnpurdue has already been punished : he wanted to have diagrams for your rose, he won't have them anymore, he wanted to be able to fold the leaves ? He will never have any instructions for it, neither will anybody else, like you said it. That's already a punishment in itself, knowing that you made the world loose the instructions from a really good creator.

When I subscribed in that forum, I thought that would be a really good experience, by being able to contact other folders, people who have nothing but one hobby, one passion, one madness, in common : Origami, people who would be able to help me when I need help, people I would be able to help when they need help ( providing help gives a very good feeling in your mind, not a feeling of superiority, but the feeling of having done a good thing for someone else), people who would know such names as Satoshi Kamiya, Robert Lang, Neal Elias, Akira Yoshizawa and so many other, in an increasing number. By that act, I entered a new family, where good mood, friendship and sharing ruled.

Origami was a moment of relaxation, without any stress or constraint. But since a few days, a new dimension apeared, much less nice, where people get mad at other, and I would like that to stop, on the forum as much as in private, because anger doesn't lead anywhere.

Also, Hunprat, I think you shouldn't take a break from origami, but keep folding for your own pleasure and the one of your family and friends. But if you want to withdraw from the origami community and not to give diagrams to people it is your choice and I accept it.

However, these are only my thought and can be ignored.
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Postby TheRealChris » October 23rd, 2005, 11:50 am

I want to say three things:

first
what Joseph basically said is, that Phu Tran should shut up and discuss his anger in private, because that happens to nearly all of us. it's like saying, that a woman, who's bag where just stolen doesn't have the right to call "a thief, a thief" in the public, but should be quiet and handle this without bothering the other people. I don't agree with that, and with the biggest part of your post, Joseph. of course Phu Tran is mad about his work beeing stolen, and of course he has the right to say this in the public. Joseph took his own rules and took them as a justification to delete Phu Tran's posting. I read the posting, and again, I don't agree with the statement, that it was rude or even childish. he was just heavily disappointed and nobody seems to respect that. to call him childish could also be taken as a rude attack!

second
I totally miss an apology of PnPurdue. maybe this would clear some of the waves? PnPurdue, you stole something and the best thing you could now do is, to say sorry and promise, not to do it again. but what you really did was, to say sorry to the forum and blame Phu Tran for something, he sent to your school. that's the same kind of revenge that you blamed Phu Tran for! you send something to a few people, and they "only" send a copy to their best friend. within a few days, the stuff is spreaded throughout the whole world. you surely know that, and took that risk with Phu Tran's rose diagrams.

third
Phu Tran, I'm really sorry to hear, that you are thinking to break up with origami, at least for a while. maybe you should think about that once more. look at Joseph, it happens to him a lot of times, and he's still here :)


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Postby Joseph Wu » October 23rd, 2005, 5:11 pm

Christian: Phu already cried "thief" in the thread about his rose, and a number of people expressed their support of him. That matches your analogy of the woman whose bag was stolen. Now, however, pnpurdue has contacted Phu privately. Phu has taken that private letter and posted it here, and proceeded to lambaste pnpurdue publicly again. That was not necessary. Worse, in his response, Phu blames the rest of us for encouraging the violation of copyright. That Phu is angry is fine. That he is unwilling to forgive pnpurdue is none of my business. However, it is not acceptable to subject everyone to what has now become a private argument, and it is especially unacceptable to blame everyone for one person's transgression.

pnpurdue: Make not mistake. My condemnation of Phu's lack of Internet etiquette in no way means that I approve of what you have done. By your own admission, you have published instructions for someone else's model without permission. It makes not difference that you solved the CP; it's still Phu's rose (based on Kawasaki's). If he said, no, then you need to abide by that, like it or not. Your own rant against Phu was also rude, disrespectful, and childish. And your attempt to use my words to justify your actions is disrespectful to me.

As Christian said, a public apology would help, I think. None of this had to happen, but now it's blown into a big mess. I think that a simple rule should apply: ASK FIRST. And if the designer says no, then move on. Phu had always said that he wanted to diagram the rose...it was just a question of time. Now you've taken that away from him. He's spent a long time developing his rose, and he's very proud of it. What you have done is not so much about an origami rose, it's an attack on who he is. I fully understand his anger, having felt something like it many times myself. (I just don't agree with how he acted on that anger.) You, on the other hand, have no right to be angry at all. Since your outburst was made publicly, your apology should be also.
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Postby pnpurdue » October 23rd, 2005, 5:54 pm

First off chris, so what does a thief do when he takes the purse? Have I profited from this model? What give YOU the right to call me a thief. Maybe you think b/c you're a moderator and you can do whatever, but if this continues nobody would ever want to come to this site, because it'll be dominated by hissy fits and people posting private emails all over the place. You keep on making GENERAL assumptions here and there. Your analogy of CP diagramming to a thief is WAYY out off topic.

Here's why:

1. What is a thief gonna do with the purse? Of course he's gonna get the money out of it and throws it in the trash and nobody in the world would know who the purse belonged to. So how does that correlate with this situation? It doesn't. For the fact that, I did not profit from this. I did not claim it was mine nor did I rip it off him. I requested for his permission. Then deleted when was denied. You may like to deal things in public and bog people down with negative talks, perhaps your life is an open look and people can critize you however they feel fit. But if somebody emails you privately you don't post emails online WITHOUT! the other person's consent. That's like somebody hacking into YOUR email account and decides to publish all YOUR emails. How would you feel about that? One can ASSUME that you don't want that to happen or would even feel comfortable about that happening. And don't tell me you are perfect. No one is.

One more point about passing of diagrams. I printed one out to give to my little sister. Who hates origami and think it's a waste of time. But I made her try it out cause I wanted to get a non origamist perspective. So.....is she gonna pass it to her best friends? Who by the way also could care less about origami. Your assumptions are so general that lacks careful thinking.

*****

Listen chris, if I stole something wouldn't you think I'd hide it and not let the person I stole it from know? You CLEARLY didn't think things through when weighing your comments. You can go ahead and delete this post because you may not like it. You have the option since you're a moderator. But if this is how you really view and handles things, then definately the site administrator made a mistake in selecting you. I try to be an active user on this forum because I think it's a neat place, but you are very discouraging.
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Postby pnpurdue » October 23rd, 2005, 6:01 pm

I resign my membership to this forum. This situation has pushed the passion of origami out of me.
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Postby TheRealChris » October 23rd, 2005, 8:42 pm

it's completely irrelevant, what a thief does with the stolen goods. stealing just means, that you take something, without the permission of the owner, and keep hold of it (not even your personal attacks will belie onto that fact).


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Postby saj » October 23rd, 2005, 9:54 pm

I think it would be best if we locked this topic for the time being.
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