How much should one have to rely on the right paper

General discussion about Origami, Papers, Diagramming, ...

How much should one have to rely on the right paper

Postby merman » March 16th, 2008, 5:15 pm

Now this is a heavy subject. i don't want to offend all of those wonderful origami designers (realizing my desiging skills are far from what they can achieve), but I have great difficulty accepting the fact that some models turn out way better when using the right type of paper.

And I begin to wonder whether it is fair to design a model that will only work with the right type of paper with the right weight and seize if wet-folded.

First of all: let me emphasize I have done Origami for over 15 years so I know what I am talking about.

But I very often run into the problem of folding a model perfectly but then it comes to final shaping and the issue of not succeeding lies in the type of paper I use.

For instance I had this with some designs in Orgami Fantasy, OrigamI Insects II (by Lang) and even the Kamiya book...

Maybe I am blaming too much on the paper, but I prefer these type of models that don't rely too much on the right type of paper (because we cannot all afford or acquire Origamido-paper).

I am aware of the fact you cannot just use copy paper for Kamiya's Bahamut, but I used 50x50 cm Foil Backed paper and still ended up with a puffy and ugly model, especially the wing parts...

So my question is: what models are the best: the ones that work regardless of the paper or the ones that rely heavily on the right type of thin but strong paper and requires a lot of shaping in the end. (to see what I mean: check out Kamiya's Phoenix as opposed to everyone's own folded specimens...
User avatar
merman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 311
Joined: February 23rd, 2008, 3:02 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Postby Galif » March 16th, 2008, 6:08 pm

Good models, for me, are the ones that look cool. I couldn't care less about the right paper: Kamiya's Ancient Dragon still looks perfect even if I can't fold it nicely.
It's impossible until someone does it.
Galif
Junior Member
 
Posts: 78
Joined: September 4th, 2007, 10:13 am
Location: Brazil

Re: How much should one have to rely on the right paper

Postby Adam » March 16th, 2008, 6:11 pm

In my opinion, models that can be made from any paper are the best origami models. I usually have the same problem as you do: I fold everything as neatly as possible, but it still looks aweful at the end, because the paper ended up being too thick. I had this problem today, in fact, when I folded Lang's Grasshopper from 16x16 and 20x20 kami. It didn't look horrible, but I should probably use some other paper for it, so that it would look a lot better.
Adam
Senior Member
 
Posts: 418
Joined: January 3rd, 2008, 3:48 pm
Location: Singapore

Postby Jonnycakes » March 16th, 2008, 6:43 pm

It is fine if you prefer models that can turn out well from just about any type of paper, but I don't think that is one of the criteria of 'better' designs. A design is a design, and some require different kinds and different sizes of paper. If you fold a rose from canson paper, it can turn out really well. The same is not true for more complex models-they just don't support paper that thick. Does that make them bad designs? Certainly not. I am sure Kamiya's Ryujin requires a pretty specific type and size of paper, but I am sure everyone will agree that that is a wonderful design.
User avatar
Jonnycakes
Buddha
 
Posts: 1414
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 8:25 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Postby TheRealChris » March 16th, 2008, 6:52 pm

the right choice of paper is very important. nobody would blame an architect to be a bad one, only because he wasn't aber to build a strong house from wool.
I made a picture about the right and wrong decision of paper some years ago.
Image
I folded the right one very early. the paper was too small and not foiled.

although I'm a big fan of foiled paper, I would suggest to proof fold models not from foiled paper. I tried to fold Kamiyas barosaurus a lot of times without success, but after I tried using MC paper, I was able to fold it (even from foiled paper).
so I'm pretty sure, the right choice of paper could be a way to success.
TheRealChris
Moderator
 
Posts: 1874
Joined: May 17th, 2003, 1:01 pm
Location: Germany

Postby merman » March 16th, 2008, 7:18 pm

well, I have folded this Bahamut many times. I even dare to me this arrogant by stating I can fold practically anything rather neatly from diagrams the first time (from CP is harder like eg. Satoshi's Turtle)
User avatar
merman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 311
Joined: February 23rd, 2008, 3:02 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Postby origamimasterjared » March 16th, 2008, 7:29 pm

If you haven't already, you should get into Komatsu's work. Other than his tiger and hippo, all of his pieces can be folded very nicely from just plain commercial origami paper. And those two can too, but the 234 and 158 steps respectively do a number on the paper.

I really like his style. It looks good with any paper and doesn't involve all that extra shaping.

Yes, I absolutely do believe that origami works should be foldable from a variety of papers, and I do hold it against them when they're not. Most can be made with foil-backed paper if it's large enough. And by foil-backed paper I don't mean foil wrapping paper or homemade foil-backed tissue paper.

Also, try finding some posts about double-mc tissue paper on this forum. Anna, Daydreamer and I have all made posts about it. Here's a Bahamut I folded from that paper.

Image
It works extremely well. It folds like paper, but it holds almost like foil. Best of all, you fold it dry, so you don't have to deal with any messy water while folding.
User avatar
origamimasterjared
Buddha
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: August 13th, 2004, 6:25 pm

Postby qtrollip » March 16th, 2008, 8:01 pm

To me, the paper needs to fulfil more requirements than just thickness. Texture, size, color (duo or unicolor) and foldability. It all depends on the model to be folded. And when there are so many prerequisites, it's really difficult to find the right paper for the job. That's why people are making their own paper, whether it is foil-backed, mc or whatever.
When I design a new model, I use standard copy paper. If it comes out ok with copy paper, it should work for most other available papers. The second step is then to try dry-wet fold it from thicker paper (like Canson). But Canson is only unicolor. And adding/pasting tissue to color the one side is not always the best option, as it does not go well with the water when wet-folded. So there's always a problem with commercially available papers, that's why there are so many "special" papers.
After all, it is the art of paper folding! Might as well get the right paper.
qtrollip
Forum Sensei
 
Posts: 849
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 4:52 am
Location: Canada

Postby merman » March 16th, 2008, 8:33 pm

Image

That looks just absolutely gorgeous... will look after it... it is just so hard to get good fine paper these days...
User avatar
merman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 311
Joined: February 23rd, 2008, 3:02 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Postby Galif » March 16th, 2008, 10:14 pm

I think you guys are missing the point here... he asked which origami models are better: "the ones that work regardless of the paper or the ones that rely heavily on the right type"?

It is obvious that choosing the right paper is VERY important and all but Kamiya's Bahamut is a wonderful design even if it looks messy folded from copy paper. I'm positively sure that folding his Ryu Zin requires a very large, strong and thin paper (which is not easy to find at all), and yet I find it one of the best models out there (if not THE best)...
It's impossible until someone does it.
Galif
Junior Member
 
Posts: 78
Joined: September 4th, 2007, 10:13 am
Location: Brazil

Postby origamimasterjared » March 16th, 2008, 10:45 pm

I think I might have lost myself in my post. It is perfectly fine for an origami work to look its best when folded from a specific material. It is a mark against if that is the only way to be able to fold it acceptably.
User avatar
origamimasterjared
Buddha
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: August 13th, 2004, 6:25 pm

Postby TheRealChris » March 17th, 2008, 1:10 am

I think you guys are missing the point here...

if a model looks right with a specific paper there's no difference to another model that looks right regardless of the used paper. komatsus models are always a pleasure to fold, regardless of the paper but I wouldn't dare to say that his models are better in general. if a model looks fantastic with foiled paper and crap with kami it's not a bad model. as I said in my previus post: a wooden house is not better than a house made from stone. and if you chose to design your models from foiled paper: do it ... if you chose to design your models from kami its not better or worse. if your model only looks good with foil... who cares? it's not a bad one then...
TheRealChris
Moderator
 
Posts: 1874
Joined: May 17th, 2003, 1:01 pm
Location: Germany

Postby malachi » March 17th, 2008, 4:49 am

It might be helpful to think about origami and paper selection in the context of other arts and crafts.

For example, one could argue that a pottery design is "better" if it works with any kind of clay, but more complex designs are going to require higher quality clay to turn out well. The same is true for basket weaving, painting, and most other arts and crafts.

I think origami is the same way. There are models, usually fairly simple, that can work with almost any paper, but the more intricate designs are going to be more demanding of the materials and the folder.
User avatar
malachi
Senior Member
 
Posts: 354
Joined: December 18th, 2004, 9:19 pm
Location: Tennessee

Postby Brimstone » March 17th, 2008, 5:24 pm

It would be great if all models could be folded from kami, but it is not true. Sticking with kami would be limiting. I guess it happens with all arts, sports and any other activity in life. Good gear allows for better results (still the person doing it has to have the abilities to pull it off).

So to me the best models are the ones that look the best regardles of what they are made of.
User avatar
Brimstone
Buddha
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: November 23rd, 2004, 3:59 am
Location: Colombia, South America

Postby barakboom » December 5th, 2008, 3:20 pm

even if i want to choose a paper.

can you please tell me where can i find a good paper?!?!
im stuck because i cant find a place to buy good and large paper.
Please help :P
barakboom
Junior Member
 
Posts: 77
Joined: December 5th, 2008, 9:45 am


Return to General Origami Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest