Glue, Wetfolding, Tissue Foil and Purism

[cavemanboon]

thanks wolf - yeah, that was basically what i was trying to say. i used to be a "purist" too but having folded a decent number of complex stuff, i am now pretty convinced that MC and such stuff will be increasingly necessary for complex models.

i can somewhat understand what darksoul is trying to say and i guess it is important for those of us who use MC, PVA, starch paste and the like to be careful not to be overly reliant on these stuff or use them as a means to hide our flawed folding. neat folding is afterall still very important.

[ahudson]

I hate to throw in a non-sequiteur and change the topic, but have you guys read Saadya's blog (Origami, Aesthetics and Natural History) when he's talking about origami philosophy? it's sort of different from what has been going on in this topic, but it relates enough that I think you people might enjoy reading through some f it (plus I think we might generate some new conversation here, instead of repeating what was said two pages ago)

I will warn you, he says a lot, so if you aren't a native English speaker it might be a bit too long... but very intresting nonetheless.

Some of the posts that tie in the most are these:

http://origami-aesthetics.blogspot.com/ ... rasts.html
http://origami-aesthetics.blogspot.com/ ... uares.html
http://origami-aesthetics.blogspot.com/ ... ts_28.html

I suggest some of you read these and post your thoughts about them.

[malachi]

...using glue on origami... the models achieve a much more clean look with no effort at all from the folder, so they don't need to think ahead when folding the model to keep the layes from swifthing or to avoid the tips from behaving the way they don't want.

I don't really have the time and energy to disagree with your philosophy in general right now, but I would like to point out that I believe you are incorrect that it takes no effort to use MC to make a better model. In fact, I would say that it is more difficult. While you can use it to hide some issues, it is not trivial and it has its own drawbacks.

[HankSimon]

As far as I know Lang likes to wetfold using elephanthide paper, and the water allows the folder to take advantage of the natural sizing. Both Yokazawa and current LaFosse have beautiful, graceful models that require the pliability of wetfolding for the soft, rounded effect. But these are different styles.

I've seen some complex, box pleating folds on the Web that the folder used a little glue to hold the model closed. Nevertheless, he got pleasure from his folds, and no one doubts his origami skills.

Some people will not use foil, and others use only copy paper, because kami is too expensive.

Some people focus on squares or single sheet models, but there are many glorious experiences missed, if you don't stretch beyond personal boundaries ... even if it just to use a stretched bird base

But Elias's The Last Waltz, Mooser's Train, Issei Yoshino's T. Rex, and Dave Brill's Wedged Flexicube, as well as 100s of others are available to extend our appreciation and skills.

My four cents,

- Hank Simon

[origamimasterjared]

As far as I know Lang likes to wetfold using elephanthide paper, and the water allows the folder to take advantage of the natural sizing.

Actually, for the most part, he folds from really thin Origamido, hanji, and lokta paper. He uses methyl-cellulose. He also "dry-wet-folds", or MC-folds, which is where you fold the model dry until a point, and then use MC/glue/water to shape.

As for my own preferences--no cutting. And I prefer to start from an easily attainable rectangle--for sheer convenience. I'm okay with a little glue, like to make a model made from large paper hold its shape/stand up. For multi-piece models--I don't really like folding them. I've actually created more of them than I've folded. I prefer them to have good locks, so that glue isn't a necessity. But if I were to actually fold them, I would probably use glue.


Of course, for the most part, you can't make an elegant display model using foil or kami. Among the better-looking are those folded from large, thick paper and those MC-folded with thin paper. As for folding in my own room/in class/at work, origami paper and japanese foil seem to be the nicest to fold with. They're clean, and fun to fold, and don't take all the extra wetting, shaping, and drying.

(And wetfolding is to me just as bad as foil because, among other things, if you wetfold a model and then unfold it, it will not be a square anymore. It will have warped. Dry paper doesn't do that; neither does foil.)

[Brimstone]

I don't like cutting but when I come to a model like the "Moor on Horseback" by Adolfo Cerceda, two small cuts mean nothing when you need those ears

[Melancholic]

(And wetfolding is to me just as bad as foil because, among other things, if you wetfold a model and then unfold it, it will not be a square anymore. It will have warped. Dry paper doesn't do that; neither does foil.)

That brings up a question for me. If you unfold a wet folded model, then wet it again (to flatten it), will you obtain a square? Or will the edges be curved?

[thedeadsmellbad]

If you unfold a wet folded model, then wet it again (to flatten it), will you obtain a square? Or will the edges be curved?

I'm guessing curved. In practice all we use are imperfect shapes.
It is easy to forget (and laugh to ourselves) that these geometrical truths stem from statements that cannot be proven(axioms & postulates).

Of course, for the most part, you can't make an elegant display model using foil or kami.

95% of my folded models that I would consider (cough)"display"(cough) models were folded with foil and kami.

(And wetfolding is to me just as bad as foil because, among other things, if you wetfold a model and then unfold it, it will not be a square anymore. It will have warped. Dry paper doesn't do that; neither does foil.)

No square will retain the original square shape after a crease has been made.
Unfold any model with a strong crease & with the proper instruments observation will show a difference in the "before & after" measurements.



Darksoul,
When you describe the paper making proccess are you refering to a specific brand name item?
I ask because it is a fact that paper is made in many places with very different methods and with a vast variety of ingredients. Glue, skin & metals to name only a few are not so uncommon, this is so even with some of the papers labeled as "origami" paper.



I fold with as many different papers as I can find. Sometimes it is a joy to see how a sheet will react. Sometimes when folding I'll think to myself, wow this paper would be really good for the _____ model, and if I am lucky enough to remember I'll try it with that idea in mind.
If I were my ideal purist, I think I'd like to make my own paper & fold only my own creations.
Unless someone wanted to share a creation of their own with me, & then only if it were taught by them in person.
But that's a fantasy and I'm nowhere near it.

p.s. I know nothing & anything is possible

[Jonnycakes]

Excuse me for bringing this monster back to life, but the new topic got locked

First I will come out and say I am a purist to some degree. Multiple pieces of paper are fine-but I disagree with anything other than geometric modulars using multiple sheets-and no glue to hold them together. I am also ok with shapes other than squares-as long as they are fairly regular shapes (i.e. rectangles, triangles, circles). No cuts at all-they are really not necessary with today's available folding methods:

I don't like cutting but when I come to a model like the "Moor on Horseback" by Adolfo Cerceda, two small cuts mean nothing when you need those ears

It looks like that point can be split by folding fairly easily-2 ears, no cuts.

MC folding and wetfolding is fine with me, too:

(And wetfolding is to me just as bad as foil because, among other things, if you wetfold a model and then unfold it, it will not be a square anymore. It will have warped. Dry paper doesn't do that; neither does foil.)

Actually, dry paper warps too because of humidity changes in the air. If you want to fold your models in an environmentally controlled room and keep your finished models in a humidity sealed box along with depriving yourself of foil etc, feel free-but remember, no wires or glue or stands to keep them propped up


Everything about this is opinion; it is all part of one's own origami philosophy. Why do we set limits like this? It has to stop somewhere-otherwise we would be gluing on googly eyes, sticking pipecleaners in our models, using glitter, painting them, using foam/wood/other materials and cutting them to shape and adding them to the paper until the things were unrecognizable from origami. I certainly believe that this is an ethical dilemma-are we allowed to cut? Are we allowed to stab people? OK maybe a little extreme...but the same idea right?

Well, I had to at least get my 2 cents in (I guess that was more like a couple bucks ). I have this thing where if someone says something wrong I have to correct them, no matter how inconvenient or unnecessary

[Android raptor]

Since my thread on this topic got locked, I'll post what I said in it here.

I think the main time it's okay to cut or glue is if the model itself was designed to be folded by children and beginners. Think about it realistically: most people who have never folded before aren't going to be able to fold John Montrol's grasshopper correctly the first time (most people are not Jeremy Shafer, after all ), but chances are they still want to fold something that looks somewhat like what it's supposed to be. I think that those beginners should be allowed to use the liberty of cutting or gluing until they develop better folding skills. Sort of like training wheels for origami, I guess.

Another time I think it's okay is if the model absolutely calls for it and it might not be considered true origami anyway. Such is the case with the beautiful Hina Ningyo found in Steve and Megumi Biddle's The New Origami. When folded from good paper, the models are stunning and most people don't seem to care that they involved cutting. I know I sold all of mine last year at Anime Weekend Atlanta in not a whole lot of time at all! As for the anime dolls I make, I consider it more of a form of origami-inspired doll making rather than true origami (though an at least intermediate skill in origami is required to make them). I posted a link to the tutorial in the diagrams forum if anyone's interested (they're especially good to make for children!).

And as for gluing, I wholeheartedly support gluing two parts of a model together that are not joined in nature i.e. David Brill's witch with a hat and broomstick. I myself am not that fond of dual subject models because they usually end up getting very thick and to me just plain don't look as good as models where each subject is a different sheet. To paraphrase a quote of Akira Yoshizawa's (I believe) from Brilliant Origami, "Man and horse exist separately in nature; why should we seek to join them?" .

As for foil, I love it! Even though the only kind I really get is the precut kami (blush. I need to find out where I can get Japanese foil cheap), I find it very useful when folding thick models or models that require a bit of shaping. Plus they look very cool being metallic and all.

And finally, my views on wetfolding and using glue or watered-down glue to help a model keep its shape. While I have never done it myself and really don't plan to (I never really know how wet to get the paper, neither do I have paper that can be wetfolded or any models I like that require it), I have nothing against it, especially if the model is to be displayed somewhere and must be presentable. If I had the luck to get my model(s) displayed in a museum, I'd definitely want it to look as good as possible. Many people are absolutely amazed when they see a wetfolded model that's so realistic, it looks like a sculpture at first glance! Though I do think it should be noted somewhere when a displayed model has been wetfolded or glued to help keep the shape (I've never seen that to be a problem with pictures of wetfolded models in books. They are always labeled as such).

Those are my thoughts. Feel free to discuss them if you wish.

[perrosaurio]

I consider myself a purist, but only because I'm a total begginer on origami. Is my way to keep me learning and training and avoiding easy paths. So I use cheap paper most of the time, size 16x16cm and dry folding. Figures get flat and dies in time, but again, I'm just practicing.

Anyway, if you mould the figure like clay and if it needs glue to form his final shape, then it stops being origami and becomes sculpture, as simple as that, and it is perfectly ok, it's just a variation or a different art (my point of view). If you use glued solutions to keep already folded shapes like submerging the model or spraying it, to me is ok because it is a post-folding treatment.

Different is wet folding with pure water, because at the end you are only softening folds and not modifying paper's nature to keep a shape.

I think of origami as an art and also as a game, and rules sometimes makes the fun on games and allows everybody to participate

regards

[Cupcake]

I guess I must sort of be a purist, because I refuse to design multipiece models, yet I'm not at all afraid of using rectangles. So my models are still always out of one piece of paper, even if it may not be a square all of the time.

[Android raptor]

I guess I must sort of be a purist, because I refuse to design multipiece models, yet I'm not at all afraid of using rectangles. So my models are still always out of one piece of paper, even if it may not be a square all of the time.

I dislike using things other than squares, though for me it's more of a convenience thing than anything else. Since I usually don't have the money for or access to better paper, most of the stuff I make is folded from kami easily bought at Michael's or where ever. And since the kami I get comes in squares only, I like to fold stuff where I don't have to cut the paper into the right shape first. Though I don't have much objection when the shape just requires the square to be cut in half (such as for a triangle or 1x2 rectangle), that's pretty easy, plus you can make two models from one square ! I mostly just have objections when it's a shape that requires many specific and careful measurements and/or a lot of precreasing (takes too much time for a lazy person like me).

As for multipiece models, I have designed quite a few, including a three piece chupacabras, a simple two piece Mew, a raptor that I rarely fold anymore, and of course the anime doll's bodies, while not technically my design, require two squares. All of those require glue, though as for the chupacabras I'm looking to design a better one piece version, the Mew was designed before my one piece Frog Base Mew (though I still plan on doing diagrams for it because it's great for Pokemon fans who are still beginners at origami), the raptor was one of the first things I designed and a variation on Adolfo what's-his-face's lion (the only time I use it now is when I make "dolls" of my raptor characters), and the dolls I don't consider real origami anyway, and though you don't have to glue the two halves of the body together, I wouldn't recommend it because the lock isn't very strong and it's very easy to rip the halves apart.

Also, keep in mind that while I have been a paper folder for about 5 years now, I have yet to fold anything super-complex (as silly as it sounds, I'm afraid to, plus I don't think I have the right kind of paper or paper that is big enough) and on the rare occasion I design a model of my own, I'm still very heavily reliant on existing bases and/or doing variations of existing models. I really need to improve my skills

[Cupcake]

Though I don't have much objection when the shape just requires the square to be cut in half (such as for a triangle or 1x2 rectangle), that's pretty easy, plus you can make two models from one square

Well, I guess thats what I meant. Other than variations, my models are all out of a square or a 2:1 rectangle.

[Jonnycakes]

Anyway, if you mould the figure like clay and if it needs glue to form his final shape, then it stops being origami and becomes sculpture, as simple as that, and it is perfectly ok, it's just a variation or a different art (my point of view).

I am assuming you mean treating the paper with MC or glue as you are folding it?

Different is wet folding with pure water, because at the end you are only softening folds and not modifying paper's nature to keep a shape.

Wetfolding is using the MC already in the paper to shape it-it isn't just water affecting the paper, it is water affecting the 'glue' already in the paper.